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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#110301: Sep 26th 2019 at 10:45:32 AM

He ain't no say Broly.

Didn't kick enough ass.

[up] He desperatly needed that.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 26th 2019 at 10:46:18 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#110302: Sep 26th 2019 at 10:48:42 AM

Why are a ton of people being dusted by a cosmic weapon less "legitimately dead"
Because they didn't die, they were erased from existence. That's why they could bring them back.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#110303: Sep 26th 2019 at 10:49:03 AM

The devs promised patch support from day one but they never delivered!

-Sobs-

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#110304: Sep 26th 2019 at 10:53:42 AM

[up][up]Isn’t that the same thing when it comes to emotional affects and trauma?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#110305: Sep 26th 2019 at 10:54:41 AM

So I never watched a single Joss Whedon thing except Avengers films, and briefly disregarding the way everyone seems to hate him now, does he have a habit of making laughably incompetent villains and trying to make them seem intimidating so the heroes will look coll kicking their arse even though a toddler with a plastic hammer could do the same?

'Cause between Loki, Ultron and Steppenwolf, that's three for three-for-three, as far as I can tell.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#110306: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:00:18 AM

'Cause between Loki, Ultron and Steppenwolf, that's three for three-for-three, as far as I can tell.
I wouldn't call either Loki or Ultron "incompetent." And Steppenwolf wasn't created by Joss, but by Zach Snyder.

Also, no: there were certainly incompetent villains on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but the majority of the Big Bads were scary and powerful. The best ones were either Angelus or the Mayor.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:00:30 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#110307: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:01:18 AM

> The best ones were either Angelus or the Mayor.

For me it's Spike or !Evil Willow

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#110308: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:03:57 AM

[up]A fellow Spike bro, I see.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Andrei_Bondoc Since: Jan, 2019
#110309: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:11:41 AM

You know what I forgot the most about Guardians of the Galaxy?

"Watch out, here comes my arrow! It flies super fast..."

But I knew that then was not yet the time and that I should wait to watch its sequel.

"Scooby Dooby Doo!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#110310: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:11:49 AM

@ alliterator

You are making a distinction where literally none is made whatsoever in-universe. They consitently talk about all these people being dead/killed whatsoever.

And yeah, the results are still the same since everybody still remembers.

Edited by Forenperser on Sep 26th 2019 at 8:12:08 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#110311: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:20:43 AM

You are making a distinction where literally none is made whatsoever in-universe.
I just quoted Rocket, who made the distinction: "Now, I get you miss your Mom. But she's gone. Really gone. And there are plenty of people who are only kinda gone." Nobody goes into the details, but there's a reason the Snap victims can come back and not, you know, everybody who died from normal means.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:22:12 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#110312: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:23:50 AM

It's definitely a decent point that the movie claims that the characters killed before the Snap are a different dead than other characters who were killed by it, but never at any point gives any explanation as to why.

Every theory: that the snapped people are trapped in the soul stone, that they were erased from existence, that the stones can only reverse deaths they caused, all of that is just theory (or forced to rely on Word Of God) because the film itself doesn't care about justifying the distinction.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:25:11 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#110313: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:25:25 AM

Because it knows it doesn't need to. People can understand "snapped from existence" is different from "dead by regular means."

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#110314: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:26:05 AM

The distinction is clear and simple: the former can be brought back to life, the latter cannot.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#110315: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:26:08 AM

Inversely Thanos can destroy the entire universe, make a completely new universe, and create new life with the Stones, so the limits on anything else seem somewhat arbitrary.

It’s really just a Hand Wave so the characters don’t have to dwell long on the query of bringing back anyone who’s ever died and using up even more resources. tongue

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:27:34 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#110316: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:27:19 AM

My wild mass guess is that the Snap was a Reality Stone alteration, meaning it could be altered back.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#110317: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:31:03 AM

People can understand "snapped from existence" is different from "dead by regular means."

This is a criticism I remember levying at Iron Man 3 once, but there’s a difference between subtext and straight up not properly explaining one’s plot and expecting the audience to fill in the blanks.

That the audience can make due is no excuse for bad writing.

Heck, the fact that you keep trying to justify it by saying they were erased from existence shows why. That’s Fanon. It’s not ever stated anywhere. Canonically, there’s no reason why, or given explanation for what happened to people who got snapped or any actual distinction between levels of dead.

Hell, that one vague line is the only indication whatsoever that only bringing back the snapped people was not the Avengers’ choice (there isn’t even a blanket “resurrection doesn’t work that way!” Hand Wave like they did with time travel). It can be argued that the rest of the movie treats is written as though it is (hence “only bring back everyone who died five years ago.”)

But you needed an explanation, because otherwise it didn’t make sense, so you mentally made one. You were forced to do that, because the story didn’t care.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:38:10 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#110318: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:35:11 AM

Typically "erased from existence" is Deader than Dead in most forms of media. I think this is the only time I've ever seen Cessation of Existence depicted as a lighter, super-reversible shade of death.

Now, the Doylist rationale is clear. The MCU creative team is petrified of Death Is Cheap becoming a thing and have, for a long time, been very opposed to resurrection as a plot point. So it makes sense that Endgame draws that arbitrary line in the sand. They do it in the film itself with Bruce being unable to revive Nat, and again in Word of God; the directors have said that resurrection is beyond the Infinity Gauntlet's power.

But at the Watsonian level, it's kind of weird that "literally does not exist anymore in any form" is considered much more treatable than a broken neck. It's that weird sort of authorial-fiat driven "No one in the Marvel Universe can cure a gunshot" Insane Mephisto Logic. It's clear why the line exists, but it's kind of silly in context.

have fun! Still like it more than most

Yeah, I'll also throw my hat in and say that Age of Ultron is underrated. I really liked James Spader's Ultron.

It is the weakest Avengers film. Avengers 1 is Avengers 1. Infinity War and Endgame are basically just empty spectacle; they're both a series of Cool Moments loosely strung together with no real substance or care for what those moments mean. But they're really good at empty spectacle.

Age of Ultron has a lot of flaws. But there's no shame in being the weakest of the Avengers movies. This is a titanic franchise that has never once failed to hit the billion dollar mark. One of them is literally the highest grossing movie of all time. One of them is inevitably going to be the least earth-shattering phenomenon of a film, but that's still high praise.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 26th 2019 at 12:38:03 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#110319: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:38:52 AM

Ultron has nothing.

The other 3 have more heart & soul than Ultron.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#110320: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:39:18 AM

I honestly think Avengers 1 is the weakest Avengers movie.

I mean don't get me wrong, it was revolutionary when it came out, but re-visiting it, it's kinda lacking. Classical case of "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#110321: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:39:21 AM

I don't think it's that Cessation of Existence is less extreme than death, more that it's logical to assume that anything the Infinity Stones do can be undone by the Infinity Stones.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#110322: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:43:17 AM

It's logical to assume that anything period can be done with the Infinity Gems. That's kind of their whole point. They represent limitless power. As noted above, Thanos could erase the entire universe and make a whole new one in his image if he wanted.

The arbitrary line in the sand isn't that the Gems can resurrect the people from the Snap. It's that resurrection is beyond their power in the first place. If you broke your neck, you are Deader than Dead and even the infinite cosmic power of creation and destruction cannot bring you back. But if you died five years ago when the infinite cosmic power of creation and destruction erased every last trace of you from existence forever, you can be recalled by a different set of Gems unrelated to the ones that killed you, that's fine.

Like I said, it's clear why this arbitrary line in the sand exists. But at a Watsonian level, it is an arbitrary line in the sand. There's no reason the Gauntlet shouldn't be able to do to, say, Quicksilver what we literally see it do for Vision in Infinity War.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 26th 2019 at 12:44:44 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#110323: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:43:37 AM

I like Ultron's personality and acting and felt he was wasted by the indecisive writing.

The big thing that I love about MCU Ultron is that he's religious. Because it's such a great, jarring twist on the concept of a sentient robotic character - especially a robotic overlord. Usually, they're all about "puny humans and their primitive emotions and faiths," but there Ultron is pontificating about the nature of gods and divine will. It's the kind of character Playing Against Type that the MCU really ought to embrace more (though not a villain, the same kind of thing is why - for example - M'Baku is so likable).

And then you think about it, who better to believe in the concept of intelligent design than a knowingly artificial being, whose entire being right down to the metaphorical genes was designed with a purpose by another being? It could have been a great example of Blue-and-Orange Morality that they really could have leaned into more.

Ultimately, Ultron ran into the same problem - say - Electro ran into in Amazing Spider Man: they started with this great personality and methodology for a villain, and then rushed his role halfway through and defaulted to having him do and think whatever the plot needed him to do and think - and so he ended the story a bland, inconsistent mess.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:48:22 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#110324: Sep 26th 2019 at 11:52:17 AM

Pretty much, yeah. There’s a lot of problems with Age of Ultron and some ideas that should’ve been left on the cutting board, but in terms of concepts it is probably the most ambitious Avengers film even if it misses the most in execution.

ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#110325: Sep 26th 2019 at 12:20:50 PM

It also shows the behind the scenes trouble during Ao U IIRC Joss wanted a more cerebral character driven film with a few action set pieces, while Perlmutter was pushing for "Avengers 2012 but swap out Loki for Ultron" and LOTS of action pieces. You can see the waring Po V in the final product.

Ao U was the start of the Dork Age in the MCU where all the creatives were wanting to try new and different things while Perlmutter was insistent on the 'tried and true' superhero formulas


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