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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#110026: Sep 21st 2019 at 12:27:48 AM

Yeah, honestly, Harry was kind of a deadbeat. Norman is remarkably civil about it.

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KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#110027: Sep 21st 2019 at 12:29:14 AM

Dafoe's Norman Osborn seemed to be more of a typical rich, critical father than an outright abusive parent. All things considered he seemed to be more attentive and concerned about Harry's personal life, holding him to a higher standard and attempting Brutal Honesty to protect him. He clearly had some darkness inside but he morally struggled against the Goblin persona. Compared to numerous other examples of Abusive Parents that is rather mild, as those involve being completely disinterested in their successes, constant emotional manipulation and physical abuse. Compare that to Cooper's Osborn, whose dying words to his son were basically "You're next."

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#110028: Sep 21st 2019 at 12:45:16 AM

This right here: "You want me to trade in my care for a Jetta just because you flunked out of every private school I ever sent you to?" That's not "constructive criticism," that's "insulting." He doesn't give a shit about Harry. Norman Osborn was totally a shitty dad.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#110029: Sep 21st 2019 at 12:49:37 AM

Harry doesn't talk to Norman about his problems. In the dialogue transcript I posted Norman does ask what is bothering Harry and then Harry tells him to forget it.

[up]You think only abusive parents bring up the fact that their kid has failed out of schools before?

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#110030: Sep 21st 2019 at 12:51:10 AM

Thats not an insult.....that qualifies as harshly confronting him with his screw-ups, but not an insult. Especially with the "Don't be ashamed of what you are." afterwards.

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#110031: Sep 21st 2019 at 12:52:04 AM

Spectacular Norman was party blatantly obvious in showing favoritism to Peter.

And that’s without getting into...... later stuff.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 21st 2019 at 12:53:25 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#110032: Sep 21st 2019 at 12:58:45 AM

PS 4 Spidey Norman was probably one of the most sympathetic versions of the character.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#110033: Sep 21st 2019 at 1:02:52 AM

And even that guy has a lot of demons.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#110034: Sep 21st 2019 at 1:03:10 AM

The only really sympathetic portrayal of Norman is the one from the Nineties Animated series.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#110035: Sep 21st 2019 at 1:06:00 AM

Wait now that I recall Ultimate Cartoon Osborn did genuinely try to go straight.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#110036: Sep 21st 2019 at 1:12:52 AM

Yes he did. I think he even succeeded.

Edited by windleopard on Sep 21st 2019 at 1:14:24 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#110037: Sep 21st 2019 at 1:43:14 AM

You think only abusive parents bring up the fact that their kid has failed out of schools before?
I never called him abusive. I never even called him terrible. I called him shitty and he is. Everything about him — his demeanor, the way he talks to Harry, the way he puts him down without ever saying anything good about him — all mark him as a shitty dad.

You guys seem to think that there is some sort of line a dad crosses to go from "good" to "terrible, abusive father." But there is a wide spectrum between those two and shitty is right in there.

Hey, you know what you don't do if you're a good father? Test an untested, highly dangerous serum on yourself because you think it might help your company, without ever asking if this will affect your family or your son, who obviously is looking to get your attention. But fuck him, the only attention you'll give your son will be subtly negging him.

Norman isn't some sort of abusive monster dad; he's just a really shitty one.

Thats not an insult.....that qualifies as harshly confronting him with his screw-ups, but not an insult.
Yeah, that's not "harshly confronting him," that's "throwing your failures in your face." I'm not sure why you are defending Norman here; he's supposed to be seen as a shitty dad. In fact, Harry is telling his father the reason he flunked out in the first place — because he didn't want to go to those schools — and Norman doesn't seem to understand. He thinks Harry is ashamed of being an Osborn, but really Harry wants to fit in with the other kids and not stand out as "the rich kid." Norman doesn't give a shit about that.

This is the entire conversation:

Harry: Dad, these are public school kids. I'm not showing up for a field trip in a Rolls.
Norman: What, so you want me to just trade in my car for a Jetta just because you flunked out of every private school I ever sent you to?
Harry: It wasn't for me.
Norman: Of course it was. Don't ever be ashamed of who you are.
Harry: I'm not ashamed of who I am. It's just...
Norman: Just what, Harry?
Harry: Forget it.

Norman clearly doesn't care what his son actually wants (saying "Of course it was" and ignoring Harry when he asks him to drive around the block) and instead wants to mold him to be who Norman wants him to be.

Which means he's a shitty dad.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 21st 2019 at 1:51:51 AM

eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#110038: Sep 21st 2019 at 4:55:24 AM

If being a good father means never "throwing your failures in your face", as you called it to their son, then you have really high standards.

There's a reason Tough Love is a trope, and I'm sure a lot of tropers here (me included) had been trowed their failures by their fathers and would never call them a shitty father for that.

And as it had been mentioned before, it wasn't even an egregious one, it was one from concern of not doing as well as he hoped.

Edited by eligram on Sep 21st 2019 at 7:56:30 AM

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#110039: Sep 21st 2019 at 5:06:04 AM

I know Spidey is still out of the MCU (It still stinks, but I've chosen to get out of actively talking about it on Twitter), but since we're talking Goblins...

You guys think the MCU would've done the Osborns and the Green Goblin much later down the line? Or have we already had more than enough Goblins?

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:06:33 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#110040: Sep 21st 2019 at 5:08:31 AM

I could see the Hobgoblin being a villain since the Green Goblin was previously used

In general,I think they should try villains who have not yet had a screen presence,like Kraven the hunter

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#110041: Sep 21st 2019 at 5:22:13 AM

I think Spider-Man's Rogues Gallery is much like Batman, where having 6+ films and several reboots is still not enough space to integrate even the most cinematic possibilities. So unless we expect 6 films with JUST Holland Spider-Man, they probably won't do justice to all of Spidey's most notable villains. The legal blocks inside the MCU alone means we are unlikely to see a Spider-Man vs. Kingpin story, and outside the MCU obviously not a Black Suit story.

eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#110042: Sep 21st 2019 at 5:38:02 AM

I would've loved him to show up against a more adult and quipy Peter, with the same personality as the Spectacular cartoon, and a suit closer to the comics, as it was originaly going to be in the Raimi film:

Edited by eligram on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:38:24 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#110043: Sep 21st 2019 at 5:43:18 AM

I dunno, I still prefer the Power Rangers villain look. It fits the tone of the Raimi movies better.

The legend has returned.
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#110044: Sep 21st 2019 at 5:45:02 AM

[up][up] A mask you could be express yourself through? Man, that's uncanny! Were they going to add pupils or something? surprised

I can only imagine they didn't go through with it because Sony thought it would require paying for maintenance.

Yeah, but in the age of computers and motion capture, we should have all the expressive masks, right?

EDIT: Oh wait, Sam Raimi nixed the mask thing because audience members wouldn't believe a rubber mask can be that expressive. My mistake.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:49:54 AM

eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#110045: Sep 21st 2019 at 5:51:52 AM

[up][up] I liked the power ranger suit too, don't get me wrong. But the comic suit is so iconic, and want to see it realized in the big screen. It also makes total sense in the MCU, as it was said in Ironman 3:

Killian: I know he's a little... over the top sometimes, it's not entirely my fault, he has a tendency... he, he's a stage actor. They say his Lear was the toast of Croydon, wherever that is. Anyway, the point is, ever since that big dude with the hammer fell out of the sky, subtlety's kinda had its day.

The fear factor of that suit would totally justify it existence. Not to mention they could sell it as being able to attack any city/country and being able to blame it on a alien invasion, goblin from one of the realms that Thor came from, etc.

[up] And now we believe in a talking racxon and a living planet without questioning. How far we got.

Edited by eligram on Sep 21st 2019 at 9:02:50 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#110046: Sep 21st 2019 at 6:15:12 AM

The Green Goblin costume does look like a Skrull.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#110047: Sep 21st 2019 at 6:47:55 AM

I like how Killian is kind of embarrassed about Trevor

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#110048: Sep 21st 2019 at 7:08:25 AM

He should be more embarassed of the fact that a washed out, drunken ex-actor was more terrifying during his performances than he ever was as the 'real' Mandarin.

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HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#110049: Sep 21st 2019 at 7:35:30 AM

I feel giving a mask to William Dafoe is meaningless, considering the man's face is scarier than any mask could possibly be.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#110050: Sep 21st 2019 at 7:36:45 AM

I would've loved him to show up against a more adult and quipy Peter, with the same personality as the Spectacular cartoon, and a suit closer to the comics, as it was originaly going to be in the Raimi film:

I'd love to see a hammy Osborn fight a quippy Spider-Man in live-action. The quips have always been live-action Spidey's biggest weakness. I still remember when Superior Spider-Man, the comic about Doc Ock stealing Peter's body, used Peter's quipping as an ID verification.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:44:58 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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