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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#109776: Sep 18th 2019 at 8:27:37 AM

Ross can’t do subtle.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#109777: Sep 18th 2019 at 8:27:50 AM

American soldiers firing guns on a busy campus full of innocent students is just wrong under ANY circumstances. Not to mention it was the actions of Ross that actually CAUSED the Hulk to rampage. Banner was only a threat because Ross made him one.

Wow I go's seriously [nja]d

Edited by jakobitis on Sep 18th 2019 at 8:28:44 AM

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#109778: Sep 18th 2019 at 8:39:37 AM

Honestly, I think sending in a military squadron to a college campus is completely justified if you know that there's a giant green rage monster on the loose on that campus. I never understood why that was one of the big criticisms of Incredible Hulk. If we're coming at the situation from the perspective of "the Hulk is an incredibly dangerous monster who should not be anywhere near innocent civilians" than sending armed forces into a college campus to apprehend him is totally fine.

Seriously, please explain why I should be in any way angry at Ross for sending in troops to stop a monster from potentially going on a rampage? Now obviously, the Hulk isn't really that much of a threat, but from the perspective of people who think he is, that seems like a 100% good and justified action to take.

There is no legal definition of "monster".

If you accept the premise that the Hulk is a human being, then handling him on United States soil is the responsibility of law enforcement. The moment Banner set foot on U.S. soil, he became the FBI's problem or perhaps DHS. Not the United States Armed Forces.

Hell, even outside the U.S., he'd more likely be a problem for the CIA than the Army. I have trouble believing that Brazil consented to have a foreign military unit shoot up their town to capture some scientist dude.

Conversely, if you do not accept the premise that the Hulk is a human being, then handling him on United States soil is the responsibility of animal control. As illegal as it already is for the Army to roll tanks onto a college camps to try and shoot a scientist, it is even more illegal to do it to try and shoot a bear.

There is no provision anywhere in United States law that says the Army can totally shoot up any place they like if they think there's a spooky bogeymen there. If Osama Bin Laden was hiding in El Paso, TX, you still wouldn't be allowed to send the U.S. Army to go retrieve him. State and federal police, sure. The National Guard, absolutely. But not the Army. Never the Army.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 18th 2019 at 9:42:25 AM

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Darkflamewolf Since: Apr, 2013
#109779: Sep 18th 2019 at 8:43:10 AM

[up] Conscript all of the Army into the National Guard temporarily and then go send them in! [lol]

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#109780: Sep 18th 2019 at 8:44:35 AM

I am really hoping Ross shows up on a She-Hulk episode, just to show someone suing him over damages he likely caused.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#109781: Sep 18th 2019 at 8:48:20 AM

That ship's probably sailed. Assuming She-Hulk isn't a prequel, any lawsuit against Ross would have been filed like ten years ago. Fifteen, given the time-skip.

Even taking into account the molasses-speed at which the judicial system takes place, any such suit would have been settled years ago. Probably out-of-court to avoid the publicity of a major court hearing.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 18th 2019 at 9:49:38 AM

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#109782: Sep 18th 2019 at 8:51:31 AM

Leaving the legal facts aside, there's the ethical issues that stem from the fact this wasn't an operation to save the civilians, it was, for all intents and purposes, using them as human shields because he knows Hulk/Banner isn't a complete monster.

If, say, the Chitauri randomly came in and started shooting at the same place, I'm unsure of where it fell legally but I would've been fine ethically with him sending in soldiers in response to it.

But that's not what happened and Ross knows it.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#109783: Sep 18th 2019 at 8:52:18 AM

Maybe I'm just desensitized to the Army chasing Hulk down everywhere he goes, considering that was the basic status quo of Hulk comics ever since Hulk was created going on for decades. To me, of course the Army is going to show up and attack Hulk, that's just what happens, the Army is always after Hulk, the US Army is Hulk's first and most iconic antagonist.

It would be weird if the Hulk showed up in an area and Ross didn't bring in the Army to fight him, it's always the Army, no other civilian force ever fights the Hulk. I just don't care whether it's unrealistic or not, if Hulk is at the point where he's on the run, it would be wrong to not have the US Army show up with tanks ready to fight him literally everywhere he goes.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#109784: Sep 18th 2019 at 8:53:59 AM

If, say, the Chitauri randomly came in and started shooting at the same place, I'm unsure of where it fell legally but I would've been fine ethically with him sending in soldiers in response to it.

That would constitute a military invasion by a foreign power, which would actually fall under the jurisdiction of the Armed Forces.

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Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#109785: Sep 18th 2019 at 8:54:12 AM

[up]x3 - That assumes Ross doesn’t have a habit of excessive force responses. If he did it once, fine, but look at the guy. You really think that was the only time?

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#109786: Sep 18th 2019 at 8:57:03 AM

Ross knew full well that Banner wasn’t transformed yet and also that he didn’t want to transform. He even says during the Brazil raid that he’s aware Bruce has isolated himself and is trying to be as alone as possible. So he has every reason to NOT burst in because everything is done to keep the Hulk from being a threat, especially in a crowded civilian zone. If Ross had ordered Bruce captured stealthily instead, there would’ve been far less damage and casualties.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#109787: Sep 18th 2019 at 8:57:58 AM

"General Ross, you can't invade a college campus to try and capture the Hulk!"
"Sure, I can. He's a dangerous monster."
"By strict definition, we can either classify him as a terrorist or as a wild animal, but the army has no jurisdiction over either on American soil."
"Well, what about a foreign invader?"
"What?"
"Yeah, I bet China recruited the Hulk and sent him over here to cause chaos. Do we have jurisdiction over that?"
"I...suppose..."
"Great. Now get me some more tanks."

Edited by alliterator on Sep 18th 2019 at 8:58:22 AM

Cross (Don’t ask)
#109788: Sep 18th 2019 at 9:05:35 AM

[up][up] From what I remember that was the plan in Brazil before everything went sideways.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#109789: Sep 18th 2019 at 9:10:25 AM

Actually, I'm pretty sure the reason Ross is allowed to use the Army on the Hulk in the comics is because the Hulk is something new and unprecedented, a super-monster, a living, breathing WMD. Because the Hulk is something never seen before, Ross was able to successfully convince the government to add "super-monsters, you know, like the Hulk" under the Army's jurisdiction.

Maybe the same thing happened in the MCU.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#109790: Sep 18th 2019 at 9:20:16 AM

Well, he didn't misplace Abomination. Abomination wasn't supposed to exist in the first place. Blonsky went rogue, killed some of Ross's men IIRC, and then forced Sterns to do that to him.

Then again, Blonsky never would have become the Abomination is a) Ross hadn't tried to resurrect the super soldier program and b) Ross hadn't given the serum to Blonsky which made him want more of it. Seriously, look at the scene where Blonsky is asking Stern to give him more power and tell me he doesn't come across like an addict looking for a fix.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#109791: Sep 18th 2019 at 9:32:34 AM

There must be some provision for the military to intervene if a domestic threat is far too powerful for law enforcement to have any chance against. Like, if a terrorist organization got their hands on a squadron of tanks and a few cruise missiles, I'd hope we wouldn't have to rely on only the police to combat them.

This argument's kinda reminding me of Gamera: Guardian of the Universe, where someone argued that Japan's Self Defense Forces couldn't legally attack Gamera. Per Japan's constitution, the JSDF can only go into battle if Japan has been fired upon first, but at that point Gamera hadn't "fired" anything, just stepped on a bunch of buildings.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#109792: Sep 18th 2019 at 9:40:31 AM

[up] In the scenario you outlined it could probably be argued that the threat has risen to the level of insurrection (if the terrorists are Americans) or foreign invasion (if they are not). In both cases the military can be deployed on US soil.

That being said, while it's possible that America in the MCU would of adopted some rules that allow the military to be deployed against nonconventional threats on US soil, that doesn't mean Ross acted properly in the situation at hand.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#109793: Sep 18th 2019 at 9:41:20 AM

Way back when, had a fun idea for Ross involvement in the She-Hulk series that boiled down to Ross giving a second try - with decent intentions - to covertly study and control gamma tech, but forcing the Leader - who doesn't have decent intentions - to be the head scientist on the secret project (since Bruce would obviously say no).

Leader then starts mutating the crap out of everybody under Ross' nose because yadda yadda nefarious experiments, yadda yadda gamma army, yadda yadda world domination. This would result in not only She-Hulk getting her powers, but characters like Ogress or Zzzax.

It's basically the exact same idea going around for how the Thunderbolts would work, but with the Leader and the Hulk mythos rather than Zemo and a team of supervillains.

I wouldn't want Ross to become Red Hulk (I never liked the idea), but I did also like the idea of Leader creating Red She Hulk to try and manipulate/control Ross, only for it to backfire when Red She Hulk turns on him and helps She Hulk kick his ass.

There must be some provision for the military to intervene if a domestic threat is far too powerful for law enforcement to have any chance against. Like, if a terrorist organization got their hands on a squadron of tanks and a few cruise missiles, I'd hope we wouldn't have to rely on only the police to combat them.

There probably is somewhere, but it wouldn't be a snap decision like in the movie, and Ross absolutely wouldn't have authority over that decision like he tries to take. He personally tracks Banner on his own authority and rolls in the tanks the instant he was detected on US soil.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 18th 2019 at 9:42:25 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#109794: Sep 18th 2019 at 10:25:17 AM

Actually, I'm pretty sure the reason Ross is allowed to use the Army on the Hulk in the comics is because the Hulk is something new and unprecedented, a super-monster, a living, breathing WMD. Because the Hulk is something never seen before, Ross was able to successfully convince the government to add "super-monsters, you know, like the Hulk" under the Army's jurisdiction.

Maybe the same thing happened in the MCU.

The reason Ross is allowed to use the Army on the Hulk in the comics is because the comics were written in the 1960's by someone who did approximately zilch research while writing wacky stories for children. "I'm not a physicist/biologist/political scientist, I write superhero comics for a living," became a meme in recent decades for a reason.

The superhero genre has evolved substantially since then and is now being used to analyze real-world issues like the freedom/security debate or a child's burden to follow in a parent's footsteps.

There must be some provision for the military to intervene if a domestic threat is far too powerful for law enforcement to have any chance against. Like, if a terrorist organization got their hands on a squadron of tanks and a few cruise missiles, I'd hope we wouldn't have to rely on only the police to combat them.

This argument's kinda reminding me of Gamera: Guardian of the Universe, where someone argued that Japan's Self Defense Forces couldn't legally attack Gamera. Per Japan's constitution, the JSDF can only go into battle if Japan has been fired upon first, but at that point Gamera hadn't "fired" anything, just stepped on a bunch of buildings.

That's what the National Guard is for.

Each state has a National Guard that serves as essentially the governor's military and is empowered to act as the governor sees fit (with rules and restrictions, of course). The National Guard is not restricted by Posse Comitatus, the act that forbids the federal military from engaging in law enforcement activity.

At a governor's discretion, the National Guard would totally be allowed to engage the Hulk. But not the Army.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 18th 2019 at 11:28:09 AM

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#109796: Sep 18th 2019 at 12:03:46 PM

If the NYPD can arrest Thanos, the National Guard can certainly arrest a Hulk.

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#109797: Sep 18th 2019 at 12:11:08 PM

Hulk has a very good lawyer,the very best they say,and she's green

Conflict of interest you say?Bah!

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#109798: Sep 18th 2019 at 12:18:56 PM

... I don't think that's a conflict of interest unless she's the prosecutor.

Don't you date imply the documentary My Cousin Vinny lied to me.

Edited by Larkmarn on Sep 18th 2019 at 3:19:12 PM

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Andrei_Bondoc Since: Jan, 2019
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#109800: Sep 18th 2019 at 12:48:52 PM

My understanding is that's accurate. It's a conflict of interest to serve as judge, prosecutor, or jury in the case of a family member because the family relation makes you automatically a biased party. Trials are meant to be fair and impartial; nobody involved in determining the accused's guilt should have a personal investment in seeing them exonerated.

But, to my knowledge, there is nothing barring a private attorney from legally defending a family member. Having that personal investment in getting a Not Guilty verdict does not contradict the intended role of the defense.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 18th 2019 at 1:50:16 PM

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