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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#109676: Sep 16th 2019 at 12:50:34 PM

Ross in Civil war was a case of Hypocrite Has a Point for me. Yeah, he did all the things he accused the Avengers of himself, but that doesn't mean that he was wrong on all points.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#109677: Sep 16th 2019 at 12:52:01 PM

The weird thing is that none of Ross' screw ups are mentioned at all in Civil War. Him lying to Banner about the super solider project, his illegal operations in foreign nations, shooting up a college campus, giving the serum to Blonsky resulting in him becoming the Abomination, none of this is used to discredit him which would actually be strong arguments in the anti-accords faction's favor. Hell, we have Rhodey siting Ross's military record as proof he can be trusted when everything about the Hulk situation points to Ross as the worst person to handle superhumans.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#109678: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:03:21 PM

[up] Maybe it was a mix of A) TIH not being up there as one of the better-remembered MCU films and B) it would've derailed from the main plot of Civil War.

I suspect the hypocrisy could come into light when The Falcon and the Winter Soldier drops onto Disney+ soon.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Sep 16th 2019 at 4:03:46 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#109679: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:09:00 PM

[up]Will he be appearing in that show?

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#109680: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:11:00 PM

[up] I don't think it's been confirmed yet, but I'll be surprised if he doesn't come back in TFATWS.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#109681: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:24:05 PM

Worth noting that, as far as debates go, someone being a hypocrite has little bearing on the validity of their argument.

When the pot calls the kettle black, the kettle is still fucking black, after all.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#109682: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:29:35 PM

That's what I was saying.

Ross' misdeeds are one thing. The Avengers acting without oversight and disrespecting foreign laws and borders are still 100% true points.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#109683: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:36:13 PM

@Hail Muffins In fact, pointing out your opponent's hypocrisy is a logical fallacy called the Tu quoque fallacy, which is sub-type of Ad Hominen.

Leviticus 19:34
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#109684: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:39:04 PM

I think the Avengers hypothetically pointing out Ross's own horrid record isn't hypocrisy because the Accords legislation puts them under his control, so the question of how people expect the Accords to make the Avengers less destructive by putting them under a likewise destructive official is a valid one.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 16th 2019 at 1:42:16 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#109685: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:39:05 PM

> someone being a hypocrite has little bearing on the validity of their argument.

Why should their argument be considered valid if they're points they're making are hypocritical?Hypocrisy undermines their argument and makes their position weaker

Edited by Ultimatum on Sep 16th 2019 at 8:39:19 AM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#109686: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:41:33 PM

[up]Not following what you preach doesn’t mean what you’re preaching is wrong.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#109687: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:46:05 PM

They may be right but that doesn't mean I have to listen to them of they're no better then the ones they argue against

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#109688: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:47:27 PM

[up]Well, then you’re just being petty, dismissing a good argument solely because of the person it comes from.

Edited by fredhot16 on Sep 16th 2019 at 1:50:21 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#109689: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:49:41 PM

I am but I'd rather have the argument come from someone who is at least,not a fucking hypocrite

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#109690: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:50:53 PM

By that logic you'd be listening to pretty much nobody, since few people practice a 100% what they preach.

Heck, MCU Cap himself is a pretty huge darn hypocrite too in some regards!

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#109691: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:51:53 PM

Of course, when the argument is that they need to stop them from becoming dangerous loose cannons with too much power, the question of "so, you are putting us under the power of a proven dangerous loose cannon with too much power?" becomes too valid. At least fire Ross before doing anything.

Wake me up at your own risk.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#109692: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:55:06 PM

Look I am not saying they have to have a spotless record but when you make an argument that your opponent can say "That's hypocritical,and you are a hypocrite " it does no favours to the argument you are making

And yes I agree that no one is perfect and above hypocrisy but unless you have a really strong argument hypocrisy is going to weigh you down

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#109693: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:56:48 PM

It also does no favors to YOU if the only counter-argument you have is “yeah, but you’re a hypocrite!”.

Edited by fredhot16 on Sep 16th 2019 at 1:57:27 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#109694: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:59:52 PM

And then they admit "yeah im a hypocrite!"

and then I go " So how can you be against such action if you also guilty of it,are you not seeking seeing to create a seperate law for you and then?"

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#109695: Sep 16th 2019 at 2:01:56 PM

In fairness to Ross (yes I know how that sounds), he doesn't do anything destructive in Civil War so he was practicing what he preached.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#109696: Sep 16th 2019 at 2:02:10 PM

“I realized I went too far and want to make sure my mistakes aren’t repeated.” Hypothetically, he could couch it in those terms.

It’s no less likely then admitting that you’re a hypocrite.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#109697: Sep 16th 2019 at 2:03:16 PM

Ross really is a terrible person.

Hell his hatred of the Hulk is 100% a personal vendetta against Banner than anything else.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#109698: Sep 16th 2019 at 2:04:02 PM

That still hasn’t no relevance on what they’re saying however. It’s blatantly trying to ignore what’s being said in favor of attempting to discredit the person saying it. Which is why its considered a fallacy.

Also this:

" So how can you be against such action if you also guilty of it,

Is easily deflected even in addition to being fallacious, because even if Ross was guilty of the same things the Avengers were, he isn’t any more. As fredhot said, all he has to do is say “if I was wrong, then so are you” and the whole “argument” falls apart.

That kind of thing happens when one conflates person and argument.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 16th 2019 at 2:09:35 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#109699: Sep 16th 2019 at 2:06:46 PM

and then I go " So how can you be against such action if you also guilty of it,are you not seeking seeing to create a seperate law for you and then?"
This is considered an ad hominem attack, where you are attacking the arguer instead of the argument. It's as if someone says, "College is very important" and someone else says, "Yeah, but you never went to college, so why should I listen to anything you say?" While it may be true, it has no bearing on the actual argument.

Ross may be a hypocrite. In fact, Ross is a huge asshole. But that doesn't make him wrong.

Here, I have this article for you.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 16th 2019 at 2:08:18 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#109700: Sep 16th 2019 at 2:09:03 PM

I'm kinda hoping he goes back to his old ways & gets caught doing something horribly illegal this time.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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