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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#109026: Sep 8th 2019 at 4:33:32 PM

I swear 3 made me realize there's always a movie where the hero is majorly depowered during most of it just to prove he's still a someone without the powers that are what makes him a someone.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#109027: Sep 8th 2019 at 4:39:16 PM

Not always a full movie. Sometimes just a scene here or there. But yeah, a lot of heroes have that "Not the powers that make the man" thing somewhere.

Tony gets depowered for Iron Man 3.

Steve has to earn his powers during the BCT sequence of First Avengers.

Thor's first movie is all about learning to be the man deserving of his powers. Then, for good measure, Ragnarok has him lose his hammer and have to learn that he's not the God of Hammers.

Spider-Man has the Iron Spider suit taken away from him in Homecoming so that he can discover that he doesn't need it to be a hero.

And that's just in the movies. The comics do this all the time.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#109028: Sep 8th 2019 at 4:47:58 PM

If I remember correctly from interviews, part of the story design philosophy for Iron Man 3 was roughly "putting Tony back in the cave where he's got only his wits and scraps to get himself out".

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#109029: Sep 8th 2019 at 5:01:45 PM

Depowering superheros and then having try to still act like heros is basically a rite of passage at this point,unless you don't possess superheros to begin with,then a writer gives them superpowers and they its the opposite where they struggle with powers they feel they don't need

Edited by Ultimatum on Sep 8th 2019 at 12:03:10 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#109030: Sep 8th 2019 at 5:15:24 PM

I mean, a true hero pretty much is somebody who does good even when they don't have anything that makes them special. Strip of their powers, tech, resources, and real heroes will step up no matter what happens.

I liked that about Iron Man 3, even though some people complained that Tony wasn't Iron Man for most of it. The only part that kind of bothered me was that Tony wasn't in the suit for the Barrel of Monkeys sequence. That's the best set-piece in the movie, but Tony controlling the suit remotely kind of undermines some of the tension afterwards.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#109031: Sep 8th 2019 at 5:19:39 PM

Here's the thing though.

Those fantastic powers are a major reason why we watch these stories to begin with. It gives them their thing.

Without the abilities, we wouldn't give these characters the time of day.Take away Tony's armor & he'd just be a regular super scientist.

The whole concept is kinda gauche at this point.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 8th 2019 at 5:23:39 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#109032: Sep 8th 2019 at 5:22:08 PM

I don't think it undermines the tension. At no point is the Barrel of Monkeys scene about personal risk of harm to Tony. Tony, in the suit or not, is never the person at risk of falling to his death. The tension of that scene is "Will Tony save all of these people?" not "Will Tony survive this terrible threat to his life that is now upon him?"

Personally, I don't think Tony really needed a "Man or powers?" thing. Avengers and Iron Man 3 both bring up this question, and it's a stupid question because Tony doesn't have powers. Tony did not get bit by a radioactive super-suit. Tony did not sign up to receive an experimental super-suit from the government. Tony was not given a magical super-suit by his father. The suit was not provided for him by the yellow sun or a lightning bolt or a wizard looking for a chosen one.

"Who is Tony Stark without the suit?" Tony Stark is the person who goddamn invented the f*cking suit. In a cave. With a box of scraps. "What would he do if you took away his suit?" He'd build another suit! Because he's the guy who built the suit. Why are we even having this conversation?

"Who's the real hero: the man or his powers?" is a stock superhero story that really doesn't make a lot of sense when applied to a character like Tony "Excuse You, I AM My Powers" Stark.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#109033: Sep 8th 2019 at 5:24:19 PM

[up] Okay amazing point. [tup]

Tony himself built the suit. Its a tool made by him & him alone. The suit indeed is him, its his own creation.

It wasn't given to him or earned. It was always his & his alone.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 8th 2019 at 5:24:54 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#109034: Sep 8th 2019 at 5:30:36 PM

And the point of the movie is for him to remember that.

Tony grew so dependant on the suit, put so much of his self-image and sense of security on the Iron Man, that he himself forgot that the only reason he built it in the first place was to get out of a tight situation.

One far worse than the one he finds himself in now.

It's the whole point of the "why don't you just build something?" scene.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#109035: Sep 8th 2019 at 7:33:12 PM

I don't think it undermines the tension. At no point is the Barrel of Monkeys scene about personal risk of harm to Tony. Tony, in the suit or not, is never the person at risk of falling to his death. The tension of that scene is "Will Tony save all of these people?" not "Will Tony survive this terrible threat to his life that is now upon him?"

Personally, I don't think Tony really needed a "Man or powers?" thing. Avengers and Iron Man 3 both bring up this question, and it's a stupid question because Tony doesn't have powers. Tony did not get bit by a radioactive super-suit. Tony did not sign up to receive an experimental super-suit from the government. Tony was not given a magical super-suit by his father. The suit was not provided for him by the yellow sun or a lightning bolt or a wizard looking for a chosen one.

"Who is Tony Stark without the suit?" Tony Stark is the person who goddamn invented the f*cking suit. In a cave. With a box of scraps. "What would he do if you took away his suit?" He'd build another suit! Because he's the guy who built the suit. Why are we even having this conversation?

"Who's the real hero: the man or his powers?" is a stock superhero story that really doesn't make a lot of sense when applied to a character like Tony "Excuse You, I AM My Powers" Stark.

I said this in another thread mere minutes earlier, and I'll say it here as well:

Well said sir. Well said.

One Strip! One Strip!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#109036: Sep 8th 2019 at 7:50:05 PM

I will be honest here and I feel the suit is the last intersting part of Iron man, is tony stark with a shinning pistol and that it, is not like Steve were getting power allow him to do waht he cant or Thor with the hammer.

Tony blasting whisplash drones was boring, him defeating stane was him using is smart, not is shinny Armour, the close we see of a cool armour moment is agains Cap of all people.

If anything, is kinda why warmachine was boring or dull, he is just a guy with a armour full of weapon, is nice but after that it wear pretty soon.

It also can be see as Tony no realling on cruch anymore.....which make Age of Ultron even worst because he construct the biggest cruch of all.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#109037: Sep 8th 2019 at 7:53:25 PM

But the power armor is specifically Tony’s thing. It’s what makes him a superhero.

It’s what gives him his flash, what makes his battles interesting. Without the armor he loses his style, he just becomes a generic white-guy inventor.

The battle with Stane was awesome because he outsmarted him in a battle of powered armors. You take away the armors from the equation, the fight becomes infinitely more boring.

Fuck the crutch lesson. The crutch is what enables him to be a superhero in the first place & why we watched the movie.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 8th 2019 at 7:57:51 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#109038: Sep 8th 2019 at 8:16:57 PM

But is him outsmart him the point, I dont find is battle so intersting because is just him using is blasters our having creative ways of put is armor, other than that is just.....sort of there.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#109039: Sep 8th 2019 at 8:21:55 PM

I didn't mind Tony being reminded that Iron Man is the man inside the armor because his space ptsd had him hyper-focusing on the armor

The montage of him being effective and sneaky with just random crap was great and then him going 'actually my whole plan was buying time for my armor because self-affirmation is great but so is a fifty million dollar battlesuit'

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#109040: Sep 8th 2019 at 8:23:45 PM

The suit's only really a "crutch" when Stark thinks all of his problems can be solved simply by building more and bigger suits.

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#109041: Sep 8th 2019 at 8:23:59 PM

Him blowing up Killian with the armour was really great.

But I will said comapring Iron man 3 with Age of Ultron feel hugely disjontied, he goes for "Im more than Iron man" to "let just put a Iron man into the whole work"

Is kind of heartbreaking.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#109042: Sep 8th 2019 at 8:25:57 PM

[up][up][up][up] But the battle was interesting precisely because it involved tactics with the armor.

Tony had to make do with a weaker armor with a shittier energy source against a much bigger armor with a superior energy source.

That's what makes his victory all the more awesome. He won by exploiting a weakness in the armor only he knew.

[up] Actually Ultron had him working beyond the armor. Ultron was his newest non-armor experiment...... that bombed horribly forcing him to heavily utilize the armor again.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 8th 2019 at 8:28:08 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#109043: Sep 8th 2019 at 8:30:51 PM

[up][up] In another way, he was trying to apply what helped him ie 'building something' to solve a greater problem

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#109044: Sep 8th 2019 at 8:32:18 PM

[up][up]The Ultron thing was still metaphorically armor. Stark himself described it as him trying to put a suit of armor around the entire world.

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#109045: Sep 8th 2019 at 8:32:30 PM

Sure but it wasnt impresive becuase the armor, but because it put Tony to think beyond it.

And I will said Ultron is pretty much is armour cruch in Iron man 3 but bigger, not surprise he talk about as "puting a armour around the work".

I feel Age of Ultron work as direct sequel of avenger, because it kinda brush Iron man 3 and Winter soldier witht he helicarrier scene(god, that scene was stupid, easly one of the worst scene in Marvel).

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#109046: Sep 8th 2019 at 8:34:25 PM

And without the armors the scene would have no excitement.

Wait are you talking about when Bucky went grenade crazy on the helicarrier?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#109047: Sep 8th 2019 at 8:41:30 PM

[up]Sure but is kinda missing the point, specially because Tony does awesome stuff without is armour.

Im taking about the helicarrier showing up like a borderline deus ex machina in Age of Ultron, it was by my opinion, one of the top three "worst moment in marvel" between Nat being a monster for being barren(I know this wasnt the intention but the dialogue was awfull) and....well, I need to think about other moment but I sure there is one.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#109048: Sep 8th 2019 at 8:57:13 PM

I didn't have much of a problem conceptually with scenes challenging Tony outside his armor, and I actually like the action scenes we got out of it. But an adaptation of Extremis is an odd place to do it, since a big part of the story was making the superpowered antagonist powerful and unique enough that even a fully armored Tony fighting them has a run for his money.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 8th 2019 at 8:58:36 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#109049: Sep 8th 2019 at 9:07:35 PM

I read the comic and adapting that have a few issue:

the story is kinda short and in fact is very, VERY personal, is just Tony vs a nazi with extremis power and....that it, there is other stuff but is feel more a tv series than a movie.

Second the moral kinda clash: extremist work best for Iron man 2 than 3 because is about if Stark and is tech have done good to the work, is pretty much neutral stark of "im doing right or just change my weapon for something else".

I mean, the comic end with him FUSING with os armour by using extremist, which is nearly oposite of the movie.

And because the comic is very low key threat, the mandaring feel kinda shoehorn in it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#109050: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:55:34 PM

I don't see the issue with the helicarrier showing up in Age of Ultron. The ones destroyed in Winter Soldier were explicitly new helicarriers. The original helicarrier from The Avengers was presumably still parked somewhere, and if anyone would know the combination to get in, it'd be Fury.


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