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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#108801: Sep 5th 2019 at 2:28:38 PM

Bench Steve was a hallucination. You can tell 'cause he gives his shield to Sam.

We all know that the real Steve Rogers already gave his shield to Stephen Colbert.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#108802: Sep 5th 2019 at 2:33:09 PM

-sigh-

fire up the cloning machine,this next Parker better last longer then the other

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Andrei_Bondoc Since: Jan, 2019
#108803: Sep 5th 2019 at 2:33:27 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]Maybe they gave up, in my opinion. I think that they considered that it's over.

Anyway...


I've watched Captain America: The First Avenger!

Summary: A scrawny, skinny lad is turned into a tall, muscular super soldier thanks to a serum and fights an organization offshoot from the Nazi.

Stan Lee cameo: An army general, who wondered that Steve Rogers was shorter in height.

Observations:

  1. I saw bits of it earlier. That's my first time watching it in entirety.
  2. Red Skull is memorable to me. And fun to watch!
  3. Guess I needed to watch Thor before this to know about the Tesseract.
  4. Cap is a very great hero!
  5. Mild profane words do come out of Steve Rogers' mouth. Or I am wrong.
  6. Dr. Arnim Zola seems to be a nice guy. He isn't so bad.
  7. The "[X] will return to [Y]" message pops again!
  8. I like works set in World War II. I am fascinated of this era.
  9. Red Skull didn't die! The Tesseract took him somewhere and we all saw it!

The Stinger: A trailer for The Avengers (2012).

10/10!note 

Yeah, I should have done them as reviews instead. But it's more fun like that!

Edited by Andrei_Bondoc on Sep 5th 2019 at 12:35:13 PM

"Scooby Dooby Doo!"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#108804: Sep 5th 2019 at 2:39:21 PM

Mild profane words do come out of Steve Rogers' mouth. Or I am wrong.

Yeah, he uses "hell" a few times. Then he accidentally got a reputation as a swearing teetotaler due to one time he chided someone.

Dr. Arnim Zola seems to be a nice guy. He isn't so bad.

Totally swell guy. Yes. Isn't so bad.

Red Skull didn't die! The Tesseract took him somewhere and we all saw it!

Get ready to wait on this one.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#108805: Sep 5th 2019 at 2:40:25 PM

I like Ennis' Punisher MAX run, as long as I can hypnotize myself into forgetting the ending.

Can't say anything about Preacher because I never read it. I did try to read The Boys and my reaction was, more or less "Watchmen did it better".

@Bocaj: The thing is that Ennis is well-known for doing very meticulous research when it comes to Warfare, and WWII in particular.

It's the one point even his detractors agree he does well, so that stood out. A lot.

Edited by HailMuffins on Sep 5th 2019 at 6:42:46 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#108806: Sep 5th 2019 at 2:40:27 PM

Up next is The Avengers! What it was all building up towards back in the day.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#108807: Sep 5th 2019 at 2:41:26 PM

[up][up] Isn't that where Frank dies & he inspires the world to take up his actions?

Also I think the only watchable version of The Boys is on Amazon.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#108808: Sep 5th 2019 at 2:44:00 PM

Supposedly, Disney and Sony have until mid-2020 to reach a new agreement. Do you reckon there's at least a chance they could patch things up?

EDIT: Source: https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/disney-mid2020-spiderman-deal/

Edited by MrHellboy on Sep 5th 2019 at 4:44:36 AM

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#108809: Sep 5th 2019 at 2:44:53 PM

[up]x2 Hence why I try to forget it happens.

It's sad, really, 'cause up until that point the comic does a good job at showing how self-destructive Castle is.

The ending should've been him dying for nothing and being forgotten as just another lunatic. Frank Castle is not a guy who gets happy endings of any sort.

Edited by HailMuffins on Sep 5th 2019 at 6:45:04 AM

Andrei_Bondoc Since: Jan, 2019
#108810: Sep 5th 2019 at 2:48:34 PM

[up][up]Well, I do still hope that things will be patched up in a manner that everyone will be pleased. And I bet that the next main Spider-Man will come in 2022, because they would be considered crazy if they don't do it like that for Spidey's 60th anniversary.

Edited by Andrei_Bondoc on Sep 5th 2019 at 12:49:19 PM

"Scooby Dooby Doo!"
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#108811: Sep 5th 2019 at 2:50:01 PM

I doubt Disney will pursue Spider-Man farther than they need to. They don't need him and there's a high chance Sony will come to them sooner or later anyway.

This song needs more love.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#108812: Sep 5th 2019 at 2:51:13 PM

I've only ever read a few issues of a Ghost Writer miniseries Ennis wrote.

Easily some of the nihilistic comics I've ever seen from Marvel but while it was pretty edgy I feel like it at least fit the character.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#108813: Sep 5th 2019 at 3:13:35 PM

most people think Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. got a lot better once the HYDRA twist was revealed, so I'd like to know why you weren't a fan of it. Unless it's about how Ward was a HYDRA agent the whole time, then I can sort of understand.

No, that I rather like.

It's just - SHIELD was introduced as a "glue" for the various heroes and films, but after the twist it's like they were water to the MCU's oil. That's not entirely the show's fault admittedly, but I liked that we were finally in that "behind the scenes" world that Coulson and Fury ran in, finally seeing how guys like Coulson went around cleaning up or handling stuff all MIB-style. I'd have liked a little more of "business as usual with a few odd cases" before the sudden table-flip.

But after the twist we were seeing SHIELD on the run, SHIELD on a budget, SHIELD fighting itself, SHIELD outlawed, SHIELD going into the future, SHIELD getting farther and farther from the MCU. SHIELD became the outsider looking in, instead of the guys who were inside of every film. It comes to a head in Seasons 5 and 6 with the creators finally decoupling the show from the MCU entirely, existing in their own bubble.

The storytelling got better yes, but the idea that SHIELD was this connective tissue got thrown out so that the films could have their narrative twist. Which coincidentally enough affected the show more than the movies because SHIELD is pretty much forgotten about until Captain Marvel.

Edited by Soble on Sep 5th 2019 at 3:29:36 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#108814: Sep 5th 2019 at 3:15:50 PM

Agreed. The fact that S.H.I.E.L.D. got its own series just in time for the movies to abolish S.H.I.E.L.D. and never speak of it again wound up really working against the show.

As a result, it was never really able to live up to the idea it had originally promised: a supplemental series that weaves through the MCU, connecting the dots between the films. It was just a Marvel show. One with no actual connection to a major comic book character, and that thus had to scrape the bottom of the barrel for D-list characters that it would be given permission to use.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 5th 2019 at 4:17:06 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#108815: Sep 5th 2019 at 3:28:58 PM

In regards to the whole HYDRA and Nazis controversy in The First Avengers, I think it does make sense for Captain America to fight a rogue faction of the super Nazis rather than just fight regular Nazi in general. If he fights regular Nazis, there's the question of whether Captain America is "stealing" victories from real-life soldiers or not "doing enough" to stop the Nazi atrocities since the MCU is supposed to emulate our real history until the debut of Iron Man. Having HYDRA be this rogue faction of Nazis who threatens the entire world despite being small does put Steve away from the real-world events and yet still feel like he accomplished something rather having no impact on the history of World War II.

I do admit that they could have showcase the Red Skull being Eviler than Thou to Hitler better than they actually did. The whole "I'm willingly to kill my own Führer and his entire Reich to show how more evil I am" is somehow just less of a Hate Sink trait than regular Red Skull from the comics.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#108816: Sep 5th 2019 at 3:52:50 PM

Also, it helps avoid an uncomfortable situation of trying to sell kids Nazi action figures and Halloween costumes.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#108817: Sep 5th 2019 at 4:00:00 PM

Dr. Arnim Zola seems to be a nice guy. He isn't so bad

Heh. I always forget that First Avenger presented Zola as this nebbish dude who clearly thinks the whole plot he’s caught up in is bonkers but goes along with it because Red Skull terrifies the hell out of him.

He must have fully converted to the cause offscreen. Though even so, Zola’s idea of what HYDRA should be in Winter Soldier is definitely different than Schmidt’s was.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 5th 2019 at 4:07:59 AM

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#108818: Sep 5th 2019 at 4:04:56 PM

[up] Well that's kinda the idea of the Red Skull. A villain so evil and terrifying even other supervillains are weary to deal with him.

And to be fair, it does seem that MCU Zola is less evil than his comic book counterpart, who got his spot as a Complete Monster.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#108819: Sep 5th 2019 at 4:15:18 PM

In regards to the whole HYDRA and Nazis controversy in The First Avengers, I think it does make sense for Captain America to fight a rogue faction of the super Nazis rather than just fight regular Nazi in general. If he fights regular Nazis, there's the question of whether Captain America is "stealing" victories from real-life soldiers or not "doing enough" to stop the Nazi atrocities since the MCU is supposed to emulate our real history until the debut of Iron Man. Having HYDRA be this rogue faction of Nazis who threatens the entire world despite being small does put Steve away from the real-world events and yet still feel like he accomplished something rather having no impact on the history of World War II.

I do admit that they could have showcase the Red Skull being Eviler Than Thou to Hitler better than they actually did. The whole "I'm willingly to kill my own Führer and his entire Reich to show how more evil I am" is somehow just less of a Hate Sink trait than regular Red Skull from the comics.

I mean.

He could fight a loyal faction of the super Nazis.

The "super" part isn't a problem. It's the "rogue" part that some people take issue with.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 5th 2019 at 5:15:37 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#108820: Sep 5th 2019 at 4:21:08 PM

[up] I said it makes sense, not that it's the best way to so (though I will say that the Red Skull being The Starscream to Hitler is all but inevitable, so they're going rogue anyways).

Personally, the cynical side of me think it might have something to do with the whole merchandising angle. If HYDRA were to be sold alongside the Galactic Empire, they'll have to employ the No Swastikas rule. And how do you justify a No Swastikas for HYDRA In-Universe? They broke off from Nazi Germany and decides to be their own Reich.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#108821: Sep 5th 2019 at 4:26:36 PM

The actual Nazis glimpsed in The First Avenger aren't given sympathy so making HYDRA the villain absolutely isn't an apologetic move, but there is a certain subtext of "what's worse than racists is folks who hate everyone equally". Which, nah, racists are still pretty unmatched on the rankings of "most destructive bad guys in history ever".

What's a little clearer from reading the First Avenger prelude comic (back when Marvel actually put thought into them rather than just churning out a quick recap of the previous movie and calling it a day) is that HYDRA's motive, like the Nazis, is still centered around that of racial purity. The difference is that the Red Skull views supersoldiers as the master race, not in a national superiority. Only he mattered, everyone else was cannon fodder, as says their slogan. Modern HYDRA ended up dropping this philosophy, as they aren't ruled by supersoldiers.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 5th 2019 at 4:28:01 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#108822: Sep 5th 2019 at 4:47:49 PM

Schmidt's HYDRA is built on the idea that the superior (IE, him) should rule over the inferior, and stomp them underfoot if need be. This also expresses itself in his methods - seeking out power no one else has and using supertech to attempt to render the forces that oppose him primitive in comparison.

Zola's HYDRA is built on the idea that humanity as a whole is destined to self destruct and thus requires a despotic hand: their despotic hand. This likewise expresses themselves in their action: prodding global conflicts to make people lose faith in their own freedom and remove/destabilize those who would provide stability that doesn't involve HYDRA, and then attempting to take that freedom away.

Schmidt's a lot like Voldemort, in that he indoctrinated his followers to believe in a cause that was always just a backdrop to make himself as exceptional as possible.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 5th 2019 at 5:07:29 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#108823: Sep 5th 2019 at 4:52:26 PM

Yeah, I remember reading that the main reason the Red Skull didn't support whole Aryan purity thing was because he knew eugenics was a bunch of pseudo-science. He still gladly participated in the atrocities the Nazis carried out.

That comic showed that Schmidt got Erskine to work on the serum by sending his family to a concentration camp and promising their freedom once his serum worked. And then it turned out he lied to Erskine, and his family had died within the camps years ago.

While that's dark, I think including hints of that backstory in the film would've added a bit more to Erskine's character and made Schmidt a more detestable villain.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Sep 5th 2019 at 7:53:33 AM

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#108824: Sep 5th 2019 at 4:54:24 PM

[up][up]And Zola is a decent enough ringer for Grindelwald, if you squint: 'For the Greater Good, as determined by me, since I believe my despotism is the only way.'

[down]Fixed.

Edited by ViperMagnum357 on Sep 5th 2019 at 8:35:42 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#108825: Sep 5th 2019 at 5:34:13 PM

I get that Winter Soldier was over half a decade ago, but I think it would be courteous to keep everything spoiler tagged until the newcomer catchs up.


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