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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
My point is and was always that Disney made a deal with Sony that was extremely favorable to Sony and now Disney wanted to change the deal, since they had just made a film that outgrossed every other Sony film. And Sony didn't want that, because the original deal was, again, extremely favorable to them.
Edited by alliterator on Aug 21st 2019 at 1:47:46 AM
I'm sorry, when did Amy Pacsal sign a contract with Barack Obama? Oh, she didn't? So that was completely goddamn irrelevant in a discussion of contracts, and just you trying to use whataboutism to deflect? Good to know.
No, the deal wasn't favorable to Sony. You can tell because the deal was made when Sony was over a barrel, not only coming off TASM 2, but also coming off of the targeted email attack by North Korea. Disney are not goddamn pixies going around just signing dels to favor others out of the goodness of their hearts.
The solo Spider-man movies were always the cost for Marvel of doing business in getting Spider-Man, 100% free and 100% unrestricted, in any team up movie Marvel wanted to make. T He Spider-man movies was where Sony was getting its money on the deal. Civil War and all subsequent Avengers movies, as well as merchandising, was where Disney was getting its money.
The deal was fair to both. Both of them agreed to it, at a point when the power dynamic involved was WILDLY more in favor of Disney than it is presently. Disney now want more, because they are being greedy. They are tired of paying even that cost of business, and think that they should get the team up movies AND the solo movies, and now , Sony's other movies will be what Sony gets money from.
Edited by qwigly on Aug 21st 2019 at 2:23:10 AM
But sure, go right ahead and tell me how Sony is completely and utterly blameless and all the blame lies with eeeevil Disney.
Edited by alliterator on Aug 21st 2019 at 2:25:25 AM
And how much money did Sony see for Infinity War and Endgame?
Stop pretending those teamup movies dont exist.
Do you seriously not understand the difference between whataboutism and precedent?
Precedent is saying "Disney have written and relied on plenty of shady contracts in the past, thetefore there is no way they would ever sign a deal that was unfair against them".
Your thing is "Amy Pascal is racist, therefore Sony managed to trick poor old Disney out of all its money."
Edited by qwigly on Aug 21st 2019 at 2:30:05 AM
Stop pretending those teamup movies dont exist.
And if you believe Sony is squeaky clean and has never shafted anyone, boy, have I got some bad news for you.
Edited by alliterator on Aug 21st 2019 at 2:32:38 AM
Again, that would be relevant if people were saying that the deal as it existed was horribly unfair to Sony. Too bad no-one said that.
I'm saying that both Sony and Disney are equally ruthless, manipulative, and underhanded. Which is how you can tell the deal was 100% fair, cause neither side would ever cede a single thing more than they had to.
Edited by qwigly on Aug 21st 2019 at 2:36:06 AM
But, and here's where things are finally going pear-shaped, the deal was never going to last forever. Disney was never going to continue to accept 5% forever and Sony was never going to continue to let Disney take some of the profits that they want all of. Which is why Sony almost immediately began making their "Sony's Marvel Universe
" franchise. Disney, on the other hand, waited until they made Sony a billion-dollar movie before trying to renegotiate the contract — and sure, they came out with an aggressive first move, but guess what? That's what these huge corporations do.
Saying "Disney should have kept the same deal going" is ignoring the simple fact that neither Sony nor Disney wanted to keep the same deal going.
Pragmatism here is just wanting Sony to give in order to get Spider-Man in The Avengers. Which they got. Now they want more.
Sony absolutely wanted to keep the deal going. Them making other movies had absolutely nothing to do with the deal.
Edited by qwigly on Aug 21st 2019 at 3:15:03 AM
They did a deal that suited them both then. It doesn't suit either of them as well any more. Hence the current situation. But I am reasonably sure another deal will eventually be ground out.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."(Sees the great qwigly and alliterator debate)
(Rubs his temple)
Guys, I'm hurting as much as you guys are, but alliterator is right, qwigly. You are making claims that sound less than believable without presenting evidence. Do you have a source for whatever you're saying?
Or am I going to have to get the mods involved?
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Seems like it suits both of them perfectly. Disney made $5 billion off of two movies using Spider-Man, Sony got a billion dollar movie out of it. It only doesnt suit Disney cause they want more.
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you are continuing to claim Sony somehow forced Disney to agree to a deal that was hugely unfavorable to them. The situation i proposed was the only situation that would allow Sony to do this. What exactly is the situation you have that forced Disney to do what Sony said?
you seriously need evidence that Disney agreed to the initial deal?
Edited by qwigly on Aug 21st 2019 at 1:22:21 AM
You know what? If it means you'll present a source, then yes, we all need evidence that Disney agreed to the initial deal.
Because I thought it was Disney who came up with the deal.
Gah, this stupid "no more Spidey in the MCU" debacle is tearing us apart. We are now brothers pitted against brothers. How much longer until babies start having babies?
Something I'd note is that Disney's current 5% is actually a lot larger than it sounds. It's off gross, not net, which means it's about 15% of the expected profit, which is actually fairly sizable for someone who's not really helping make the movies (plus I think Disney gets all the merch sales as well?)
...Though I don't think this is entirely a money thing. It sound like Disney is trying mainly to get control over Sony's spider pictures more than anything else. But it's this control that Sony seems to be the most irritated by
I'm going to say that I won't be surprised if Sony ends up walking. They've already got a successful start to a franchise, and I'm not sure what else Disney has to offer?
Bruh, you serious?
Disney's offering to have Spider-Man interacting with other Marvel superheroes, which is something everyone's been wanting since the MCU got big?
Plus, the last time Sony tried to start their own big name superhero movie universe, it got us The Amazing Spider-Man 2, which has been notorious for being less substance and more "let's see how many sequels and spin-offs we can start building up towards because we know people will be stupid enough to watch and pay money for sequels and spinoffs, regardless of quality."
And while Venom made back its money and then some, it was not a critical success, which MCU movies turn out to be.
Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Aug 21st 2019 at 6:55:27 AM
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turns out I was incorrect
Sony sctually made the deal BETTER for Disney than the initial rumors surrounding it.
https://variety.com/2015/film/news/details-spider-man-appear-in-sony-and-marvel-movies-1201429039/
no, last time Sony tried to start a franchise was probably Jumanji.

Of course there must be more behind but what I see is:
I hope the parties eventually reach a middle ground.
Is someone here seriously convinced there's some dastardly plot by Disney to turn fans against Sony and use them as leverage? The backlash would have happened in any case.
Finally, for whoever bemoans the influence of Tony Stark in the first two Holland movies: FFH was about accepting Tony's legacy (refusing it is one of the reasons for trouble later in the movie), true, but also about rising above his shadow, and it all looked set for the third movie for Peter to become more of an hero on his own than "the next Iron Man".
Edited by GendoIkari on Aug 21st 2019 at 10:37:10 AM