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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#106651: Aug 9th 2019 at 5:10:58 PM

Maybe that's why. She just seemed very smug in Captain Marvel for no good reason, while in Endgame, it makes perfect sense.

The legend has returned.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#106652: Aug 9th 2019 at 5:13:10 PM

She thought she was an elite soldier handpicked for unique powers.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#106653: Aug 9th 2019 at 5:17:22 PM

She was a flat character in Endgame mostly defined by being Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy when she wasn't Put on a Bus for an understandable but narratively flimsy reason, so I don't really blame people who weren't so fond of her there when it was their only exposure to her. She wasn't particularly deep in her solo movie, definitely extremely static compared to fellow vanilla protagonist Stephen Strange although the script flattered her with more charisma, but it did at least showcase her Freudian Excuse for why she'd be such an Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy at least.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#106654: Aug 9th 2019 at 10:14:14 PM

"I don’t see that as being a grump "

Maybe because the way she snark is more dry and focus on getting a moment, which is kinda diferent of how Marvel snark usually, ether they are smart and get cocky or cleaver jokes or have that sort of "dont care, having fun" which Carol isnt.

And I get why usually, she is a military and military at times have this sort of dry humor and probed each other, often bragging about being the best.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#106655: Aug 10th 2019 at 1:51:51 AM

I don't get why everyone think Carol was a flat or static character. To me it's obvious she has a character arc and evolves.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#106656: Aug 10th 2019 at 1:53:36 AM

Maybe it's because in the movie it's less her changing as it is her remembering.

Disgusted, but not surprised
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#106657: Aug 10th 2019 at 2:03:36 AM

Yeah she kind of has a weird arc of her development being back into who she used to be instead of growth per se. It's not a bad thing but it's her turning into a relatively standard MCU style hero when that's where most of them start off and develop from.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#106658: Aug 10th 2019 at 6:23:52 AM

Carol's character arc is going from a static character to a real person. Seems fine to me. I intensely feel the double-standard being applied here to female movie heroes.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#106659: Aug 10th 2019 at 6:33:00 AM

In what way is "a woman thinks she's a cold-hearted Kree soldier who needs to learn restraint, she learns that she was lied to, brainwashed, and she's actually a human with a family and her true strength is when she lets her emotions loose" not a full, satisfying character arc? Carol is a completely different person at the end of the movie than she is at the beginning.

Yes, she ends the movie as more of a typical superhero... and? Her character arc is literally about becoming a hero, from the starting point of "cold-hearted alien soldier".

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#106660: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:53:45 AM

Her arc is that she's a tough-as-nails badass who suffered amnesia and was groomed for years prior to the start of the movie realizing that this is what happened to her.

The culmination of said arc in the movie is her rejecting Yon-Rogg's challenge by casually blasting him and bluntly telling him she has nothing to prove to him.

Edited by M84 on Aug 10th 2019 at 10:54:57 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#106661: Aug 10th 2019 at 9:41:25 AM

The thing is being tough as nail badass is kinda what she is already, they didnt take that away as "Vers" and she was remenbering more of the context of it.

And she is badass but usually those chararter can come close as sort of there, Cap kinda suffer the same(not surprising both are military people) in a way and there is a reason Falcon and Nat have so many moment with him as result.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#106662: Aug 10th 2019 at 9:44:59 AM

Nah, they totally limited her. They knew from the start how powerful she could have been and did everything they could to restrain her.

It's remembering who she really was that gives her the strength to break free of the years of conditioning and the implant which allows her to go all out.

Edited by M84 on Aug 11th 2019 at 12:46:40 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#106663: Aug 10th 2019 at 9:49:28 AM

Chararter grow wise? yeah.

Personality wise? not so much, that is usually what people remenber more of superhero movie.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#106664: Aug 10th 2019 at 10:32:44 AM

[up] I have a question: are you literally on drugs right now? What the hell is Thor's personality that everyone remembers so well? Steve Rogers?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#106665: Aug 10th 2019 at 10:52:02 AM

....I will personally ignore that question, thank you very much.

to the next one, Thor? he is fun in party guy-kinda way, I dont think he can carry a movie as chararter and is best moment are in avenger films actually, but overall personality was he is charming, which is what Marvel usually goes for chararters.

Steve? he is kinda bland and relies in other chararter to get the best of him, which is what they did in Winter soldier with Nat and Falcon who serve as is suport.

I will said Carol is closer to Steven personality wise, she is tough-on-nail badass and that is good....but usually those chararter does tend to be a little bit to bland at times.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#106666: Aug 10th 2019 at 12:49:02 PM

Strange's arc is guy who starts off as . Pretty dynamic, but also extremely boring and tedious because we've seen it done much better before. Carol's arc is about reverting to the person she already was before she got caught by the Kree (and we see flashes of this persona since early on), so it's not really a shift; she's learning to allow herself to become less of an unfeeling robot, but she was already like that to begin with, and even as "Vers" she showed decent emotional range.

Thor is dynamic in terms of character development but the inconsistent and often poor writing means it's not a thing to really celebrate. Steve is static, and that's part of what makes him interesting. His desire to right wrongs and his progressive mentality regarding the changes to the present was a trait he already exhibited back in the 40s.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#106667: Aug 10th 2019 at 12:51:08 PM

Regaining what you used to be is also dynamic and character growth. Its technically character regression but in a way that I don't think people mind because we learn about the before as Carol does.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#106668: Aug 10th 2019 at 12:58:27 PM

It's more about the way it was presented, you don't really see the change because it was established as a norm since pretty early in the movie and because her current status quo isn't that deviant, versus Strange who they beat us over the head as an arrogant asshole before he becomes more conscientious.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#106669: Aug 10th 2019 at 1:05:11 PM

Also Stark is an asshole but in a rock star kind of way, he learn to be a better person but without losing that funny, rebelious side of him that is endering, Strange is just and asshole, it feel much as benedict cosplaying Dr house...fitting considering is based on sherlock.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#106670: Aug 10th 2019 at 1:11:17 PM

See, I didn't get the impression that Kree Carol, pre-Kree Carol, and post-Kree Carol are any different, personality-wise.

The Kree didn't indoctrinate Carol by making her embrace their values and ideology; they did it by lying to her about what their values and ideology really were. Once she finds out the truth, she changes sides immediately without any apparent internal conflict.

Even her big embracing-her-emotions/her-power moment doesn't seem like a change in her thinking, really. At the end of the movie she doesn't seem any more or any less in tune with her emotions than she was at the beginning, and if she's more willing to push the limits of her powers, it's because a) she's no longer part of a chain of command where doing would get her in trouble, and b) since she now knows the Supreme Intelligence wasn't the source of her powers, and has actually been trying to limit them in order to protect itself, she can safely dismiss its warnings about her powers as bunk.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#106671: Aug 10th 2019 at 1:23:05 PM

Yeah it depends on how central we view personality or values regarding character development. She does have some realizations and changes of behavior but they're hinged entirely on misinformation and her current knowledge. Her demeanor itself isn't affected and the way she treats other people is solely a result of misinformation as opposed to the kind of person she is. Had she known the Skrulls were sympathetic from the beginning I don't doubt she would've stuck her neck to help them even as Vers. And that can be a good thing, the Kree weren't able to fundamentally change the kind of person she was, just as becoming Captain American didn't keep Steve from wanting to do the right thing.

To contrast, Bucky went through a similar though much harsher situation, but there's very noticeable differences between the Bucky of the past, who was an openly warm and supportive best friend always eager to be by his side, to someone much more weary and conflict-avoidant, directly as a result of his experiences.

Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 10th 2019 at 4:25:25 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#106672: Aug 10th 2019 at 1:47:18 PM

I think you're forgetting the bit where Maria had to talk her into helping the Skrulls because learning that everything she thought true was a lie mostly made Carol absolutely furious.

Yes, it happened over the course of a scene but it wasn't 'oh the Kree were lying? Cool, team Skrull for life'

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#106673: Aug 10th 2019 at 2:33:19 PM

After watching both The Raid movies & the first Ip Man film now I really hope they get some dope fight choreographers for Shang-Chi.

I'm also curious what style Shang will use. For instance the guys in The Raid use Silat while Ip Man utilizes Wing Chun.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 10th 2019 at 2:35:28 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#106675: Aug 10th 2019 at 3:53:02 PM

Looking at his comics powerset on the Marvel wiki, it looks like he'd fight using a mix of John Wick's CQC, Jackie Chan's improvised weaponry, and Naruto's Shadow Clone Jutsu.

The legend has returned.

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