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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#106401: Jul 31st 2019 at 10:36:51 AM

Loki's fought individual Avengers. He threw down with Thor twice; once in the Thor film and once in Avengers proper. He lost both fights, but was able to sneak attack Thor with a stabby knife in the second one.

He fought Captain America, but that fight was inconclusive. He surrendered when Iron Man showed up, but that surrender was part of an evil plan so YMMV whether he was just faking his defeat, or if he was legit outmatched but being outmatched worked to his advantage.

He failed to mind-control an unarmored Tony Stark, and then he failed to kill an unarmored Tony Stark shortly after.

He got blown the f*ck up by Hawkeye's arrow.

And, of course, there was his curbstomp fight with the Hulk at the very end.

He's never fought the entire team at once, in large part because Loki can't even take Thor in a straight match; good luck handling Thor and His Amazing Friends.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 31st 2019 at 11:37:26 AM

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#106402: Jul 31st 2019 at 10:38:55 AM

Because Loki wanted to get captured so he could set them against each other,as I recall

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HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#106403: Jul 31st 2019 at 10:39:54 AM

Loki fought Captain America and actually got the upper hand.

Ugh, don't remind me, that was the worst action scene in the whole movie:

[up][up]Neither did Zemo, and he was still the most successful villain at that point.

Edited by HailMuffins on Jul 31st 2019 at 2:41:51 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#106404: Jul 31st 2019 at 10:54:49 AM

Neither did Zemo, and he was still the most successful villain at that point.
That's because Zemo explicitly knows he can't defeat the Avengers. "I knew I couldn't kill them. More powerful men than me have tried. But if I could get them to kill each other..."

Edited by alliterator on Jul 31st 2019 at 10:54:59 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#106405: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:01:38 AM

[up]Yeah, so did Loki, Whedon should've made him stick to the shadows, fighting directly only as a last resort, not blasting away and painting a gian target on his back.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#106406: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:07:15 AM

Whedon didn't direct Civil War,thats the Russo bros,at least I thought meant Zeemo,Loki is hardly once to be shadowy,dude sucks at stealthy

Edited by Ultimatum on Jul 31st 2019 at 6:08:10 PM

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#106407: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:17:01 AM

His whole thing in the MCU is that he wants attention

Even in Avengers 1 he deliberately aggroed Thor to try to fight him. It went badly but the point is that Loki is very often very stupid dramatic as often as he is a shadowy mastermind and in the case of the MCU going “whee look at me!” was more accurate

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Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#106408: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:20:02 AM

Half the Avengers didn’t even know Zemo existed until halfway through the movie.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#106409: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:21:32 AM

Zemo also has the advantage that he didn’t dramatically burst from a portal, steal a thing, and blow up a college as his first act of the movie

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#106410: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:32:51 AM

Zemo's plan revolved around manufacturing false narratives. He made both Tony and Steve believe they were the hero of completely different stories, neither of which were true.

Tony's story: The Winter Soldier, Hydra's deadliest agent, is still out there and he just bombed the Vienna International Center. He needs to be brought in, no matter the cost. Even if it means bringing in those who would protect him from justice.

Steve's story: Zemo is trying to build an army of deadly Winter Soldiers! He could reach them any second! If you don't hurry up and act RIGHT NOW, he could have half a dozen Buckies at his disposal and use them to destabilize modern civilization as we know it! THERE IS NO TIME! YOU MUST ACT QUICKLY!!!

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RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#106411: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:46:09 AM

Zemo's more successful because he sets more manageable goals for himself. All he wants is to hurt the Avengers; that's it. And as long as he accomplishes that goal, he doesn't even care what happens to himself afterwards.

That's in stark contrast to Loki and Ultron, who both want to Take Over the World and rule it for millennia to come. For them, hurting the Avengers is merely one step along the way to achieving that goal. So winding up stuck in a prison cell, with their only consolation being that they turned the heroes against each, would be an unmitigated disaster in their eyes, whereas Zemo sees it as a triumph.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#106412: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:48:54 AM

I have to wonder what Zemo thought of the Thanosing.

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HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#106413: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:49:48 AM

[up]"Purple motherducker didn't get all of the Avengers. Useless!"

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#106414: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:49:52 AM

the what?

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#106415: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:49:59 AM

"The Avengers f*cked up and got people killed again," I assume.

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Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#106416: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:52:18 AM

Or "Why is there suddenly someone in my cell yelling about me being dead for five years?"

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#106417: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:53:01 AM

Huh, we never did find out if he was snapped or not.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#106418: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:54:11 AM

We might find out perhaps.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#106419: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:55:29 AM

Or that. Either way, I'm sure he blames the Avengers for the chaos of the last five years.

I really hope we get a Thunderbolts movie. I could really buy MCU Zemo malevolently trying to replace the Avengers with his own team, sponsored by Ross.

Bonus points if Toomes is one of his men.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 31st 2019 at 12:58:40 PM

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HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#106420: Jul 31st 2019 at 12:01:25 PM

I'd prefer if they went for The Atoner angle, especially if they kept it unclear at first what Zemo's true alliances lies, but at the climax of the first season he outs himself as Good All Along.

Well, "Dark Anti-Hero Who Tries to do Good" All Along.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#106421: Jul 31st 2019 at 12:02:04 PM

Either way can work on Zemo being snapped. Either he wasn't snapped and escaped in the ensuring comfusion of half the population disappearing, or he was snapped and escaped in the ensuring confusion of everyone being brought back.

[up] Possible. I've theorized that Burnside could appear in the series, so Zemo could be working to undermine him.

Edited by Falrinn on Jul 31st 2019 at 3:04:55 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#106422: Jul 31st 2019 at 12:03:26 PM

There was a question earlier about what would happen if someone got snapped in jail and I thought of a different way for someone to escape in the confusion of that nonsense.

They got snapped while being transported on a prison bus so five years later they re-manifest on the side of the road.

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RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#106423: Jul 31st 2019 at 12:04:04 PM

Characters like Zemo and Vulture getting Snapped, then getting Un Snapped five years later when no one's expecting it, is sort of the perfect chaos in which to make a prison escape.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#106424: Jul 31st 2019 at 12:08:46 PM

I'd prefer if they went for The Atoner angle, especially if they kept it unclear at first what Zemo's true alliances lies, but at the climax of the first season he outs himself as Good All Along.

Well, "Dark Anti-Hero Who Tries to do Good" All Along.

I'd actually go the other way with it. Start him out as The Atoner, working under Ross to assemble a team of convicts doing peacekeeping activities around the globe under the Accords as a sort of work-release program.

Get some familiar faces in there like Emil Blonsky (Abomination) and Adrian Toomes (Vulture), plus some new faces like Chen Lu (the Radioactive Man) and Melissa Gold (Songbird). Have the team pull together to save the day at the end of the first movie, then give them a showing in the phase-ending Avengers film as a rival team.

Then, in the second Thunderbolts film, we find out that Zemo's actually been playing multiple angles. He's setting up threats for the 'bolts to knock down and improve their reputation and public standing. It's all part of his agenda to publicly destroy the Avengers' reputation, replace them with his Accords-Positive team. "Like the Avengers, except good at their jobs!"

This revelation creates a fracture in the team. Some are like, "Dude, he's going to get us early release; who cares if he's staging bombings and giving weapons to terrorists and shit?" And others have actually fallen in love with how good it feels to help people earnestly, have legitimately reformed, and are now forced to set their sights on taking Zemo and their former companions down - even at the risk of losing this sweet deal they were given.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 31st 2019 at 1:11:55 PM

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jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#106425: Jul 31st 2019 at 12:15:24 PM

Zemo legitimately believing he's doing good, or a better job than the original Avengers would be pretty in character for him and allow him to maintain some sympathy even if his methods and morals are... Questionable. Plus there are other villains still relatively sympathetic and/or principled that they could be genuinely anti-heroic or slipping slowly into "true" villainy - Vulture, Ghost, maybe even Abomination if good writing sold him as The Atoner.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."

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