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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Y'know, with all that worrying about not offending the Chinese, I wonder if Mandarin could still be played by Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa. I can't think of anyone more perfect for this role.
... And that's called jazz!![]()
I want it, but I worry about typecasting. And the guy has range, as anyone who’s seen The Man in the High Castle can attest to.
They probably do want a native Chinese or Chinese-American actor.
Edited by Beatman1 on Jul 25th 2019 at 8:17:24 AM
So, I'm interested to see what will be done with the Real Mandarin (or I guess the Real, Real Mandarin, because Killian was also a Real Mandarin), and I'm sure it will be great. And definitely not like the deeply problematic Hand in the Netflix shows.
My initial reaction to the bad press Shang Chi was receiving from China was that it was mostly if not necessarily exclusively propananda based on a desire to promote Chinese blockbuster movies coupled with a bias against actors who were not pure Han Chinese and/or ones from Hong Kong.
However, giving it some more thought, I have to acknowledge that as bad as the Chinese regime is, that doesn't discount their being valid and sincere objections to using the Mandarin, especially with the knowledge that he's subbing in for Fu Manchu. As a comparison, it struck me how while I would consider current Israeli government and policy pretty bad, I'd still be pissed at a movie that had an Israeli villain who fit various anti-Semitic tropes, and anyone in Israel would have a good reason to also be pissed, regardless of whether they had good or bad politics.
And I thought this was a good comparison because there's a lot of consensus about the Mandarin and Fu Manchu being very problematic (and consensus that at least the latter should not appear in any future media), so those complaints don't become invalid because they are coming from the PRC.
Also, I would assume that the Mandarin will not be something which the Mandarin actually coined himself. As a comparison, Carlos "the Jackal" didn't call himself that, and that comes from an apocryphal story that he was a fan of the The Day of the Jackal (which by extension fed the apocryphal idea that like the fictional Jackal, he had a finger in every assassination plot).
And as far as the name goes, I think the term mandarin has a slang meaning in English of sort of like rarified, secretive, and overly complex (based on stereotypes of Chinese bureaucracy and of Chinese people generally). Which fits the secretive villain quite well.
Edited by Hodor2 on Jul 25th 2019 at 9:58:57 AM
...which Marvel has also done.
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I'm trying to find a link for that because it's something I remember coming across (unless I'm confusing with some other word). I remember coming across it at some point as a description of works with beautiful, ornate prose, especially works where nothing much happens.
Edit- found it by googling "mandarin prose"- from Meriam Webster here
- "marked by polished ornate complexity of language".
Also, it's illustrated in a passage on word of the day site
:
"Macha Rosenthal wrote about poetry as part of the common heritage of culture, not reserved for those who wrote in jargon or a mandarin prose style. He wrote plainly, and took no pride in cleverness." Eric Homberger, Power of the Poem: Macha Rosenthal, The Guardian (London), Jul 29, 1996.
So, I wasn't getting the definition quite right before, but it does have a figurative meaning of ornate and complex in a way that can have either a positive or negative connotation.
And I think that by extension, it is kind of fitting for a character that is a highly secretive figure with layers of guises who runs a complex criminal organization.
Not that the writers who named him were probably giving it that much thought. Because if they were thinking of word meanings, then Mysterio would probably be called The Mandarin and the Mandarin would be called the August Sovereign or Son of Heaven or something like that.
Edited by Hodor2 on Jul 25th 2019 at 10:56:01 AM
IMO, the name should outright inform who he is. Make him a literal mandarin: have him be politically respected counsel with the ear of the highest of Chinese government by day, a ruthless scheming villain who plans to take all that power for himself by night (you could easily name drop him that way, too, by having someone refer to him as being just like a historical mandarin). I keep thinking of something along the lines of how Winter Soldier did Pierce, but with more magic and more focus on the double identity.
It works with Shang Chi’s story too, because the crux of his origin is that he thinks he’s a secret enforcer for a force for good, but discovers his master/father/order is actually evil and is using him to eliminate innocent people and/or acquire power.
Also, since we’ve had just about enough of alien gemstones of power, I think, the rings should probably just be magical.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 25th 2019 at 9:32:34 AM

Fairer still, sanything sounds cooler in a foreign language and that's an universal constant, as anyone who've played a Kingdom Hearts game might tell.
merde de chien sur le gravier sounds a mighty bit tastier than "dog shit on gravel".