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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#106051: Jul 24th 2019 at 8:34:36 PM

The Yellow Peril thing could've been fixed, the real reason the Mandarin never showed up was because he's magic and the MCU was hugging it's security blanket of Science Fiction very very tightly back then.

It's worth noting that until recently Marvel's go to response to any racially or nationally problematic character was to - instead of fixing them - to either remove them or simply make them white (because that fixes everything, obviously).

Literally the only reason we got Wong was because they realized in whitewashing the Ancient One they now had a faux-Asian environment with no actual Asians in it. They were just going to cut him because of his problematic comics portrayal. But instead they fixed him, and now he's a minor fan favorite.

Black Panther was the first time they really, genuinely sat down and said "hey, why don't we just fix this instead?" and I'll always love Ryan Coogler for that (among many other things). Now when a studio tries to use that as an excuse not to diversify, there's something to point to.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 24th 2019 at 8:42:40 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#106052: Jul 24th 2019 at 8:52:09 PM

Mind you there are still characters (few though they may be) that are genuinely unsalvageable. Mandrill being one such example:

Jerome Beechman was the son of Frederic Beechman, a physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, and Margaret Beechman. Before conceiving his son, an explosion breached the facility's nuclear reactor, bombarding Frederic and a cleaning woman with radiation. When Jerome was born a year later, he possessed black skin (despite both of his parents being Caucasian) and tufts of body hair. Jerome was despised by his family because of his freakish appearance, and when he was ten his father drove him out into the New Mexico desert and abandoned him.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#106053: Jul 24th 2019 at 8:53:55 PM

Mandrill also has the power of pheromones that control women. So he's like the Purple Man except he can only control women, which is somehow even creepier.

Mandrill has made no secret of his misogyny. He has often taken sexual advantage of his slaves. He married some of his slaves, becoming illegally polygamous. In the pages of Daredevil, it was alluded that he had made the Black Widow one of his many conquests.
Yeah, there's a good reason "I Was Born Black, Turned Into a Literal Ape, and Love to Rape Women" is never being adapted.

Edited by alliterator on Jul 24th 2019 at 8:56:14 AM

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#106054: Jul 24th 2019 at 9:37:54 PM

Well. That's...gross.

Edited by AyyItsMidnight on Jul 24th 2019 at 9:38:48 AM

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#106055: Jul 24th 2019 at 9:39:21 PM

Huh.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Aleistar Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#106057: Jul 24th 2019 at 9:43:34 PM

Huh, that's right up there with Egg Fu in terms of "irredeemable racist caricatures in comics".

Edited by M84 on Jul 25th 2019 at 12:43:48 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#106058: Jul 24th 2019 at 10:15:18 PM

He also routinelly hangs out with a similarly (but not as egregiously) awful blatant "voodoo witch doctor" stereotype, iirc.

Edit: Said witch doctor stereotype is black, but she was born white in a mirrored origin. It's like someone wanted to do a Salt and Pepper-twist, but had no idea what they were doing.

And the weirdest thing is, Mandrill was created by a woman.

More fun:

For their next plot, they acted as political subversives, using the Mandrill's powers to raise Black Spectre, a cult of black women committed to overthrowing America.

Hoo boy.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 24th 2019 at 10:21:07 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#106059: Jul 24th 2019 at 10:42:54 PM

I want to live in these incredible worlds white dude writers come up with where white hegemony is easily collapsed and POC are taking over everything. tongue

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#106060: Jul 24th 2019 at 10:55:26 PM

The red flags man, they just keep coming.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#106061: Jul 24th 2019 at 10:58:13 PM

The Yellow Peril thing could've been fixed, the real reason the Mandarin never showed up was because he's magic and the MCU was hugging it's security blanket of Science Fiction very very tightly back then.

The much more cynical answer is actually that they didn't want the Mandarin to be the villain in the for fear of it being Banned in China. That a major Chinese media corporation was a significant production partner and financial backer for the movie also leads me to believe this is the case.

Like I said previously, I don't think it's a coincidence that they're using him in something like Shang-Chi, a movie that will likely have multiple positive depictions of Chinese characters to offset any problems the censors might have with the Mandarin.

Edited by comicwriter on Jul 24th 2019 at 11:02:43 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#106062: Jul 24th 2019 at 11:38:30 PM

Reminds me of the Red Dawn remake changing them from Chinese to North Korean.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#106063: Jul 24th 2019 at 11:39:31 PM

It’s amusing cause it’s the government forcing these changes while the people wouldn’t have as much of an issue.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 24th 2019 at 11:40:13 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#106064: Jul 24th 2019 at 11:45:54 PM

Yep, most of the audience in fact hated the changes to Iron Man 3 because it was so forced.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#106065: Jul 24th 2019 at 11:48:30 PM

Yeah they are not idiots, they can see obvious pandering the same as the rest of us.

It’s fucking asinine that they keep pulling this crap. Jeez we’re the Bayformers movies awful about it.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#106066: Jul 25th 2019 at 12:41:38 AM

I remember Stephen Colbert making fun of the fact that the Chinese cut changed Mandarin's name to "Man Darren," which is something that fooled approximately zero viewers.

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#106067: Jul 25th 2019 at 12:52:16 AM

Back then, I used to have this idea that, each of Mandarin's rings would be a different suit of Power Armor with a different ability.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#106068: Jul 25th 2019 at 1:02:16 AM

The Iron Man: Armored Adventures version of Mandarin was able to make Instant Armor with his rings.

The Mandarin twist and Ra's al Ghul from Batman Begins are about the only instances where I can actually say I've defended whitewashing and in that case it was only because they were explicit commentaries on the type of characters their original versions are. But I do agree the context of the MCU and DC movies having few to none Asian protagonists made those twists have bad optics.

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#106069: Jul 25th 2019 at 1:03:30 AM

[up]Yeah, I actually based my idea on the Amored Adventure version. Only this time, each of his rings makes one set of Instant Armor.

Edited by Nightwire on Jul 25th 2019 at 1:04:43 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#106070: Jul 25th 2019 at 1:34:04 AM

[up]Reminds me of the multiple forms of a Kamen Rider.smile

"Fire Ring Armor! Please!"

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#106071: Jul 25th 2019 at 1:59:49 AM

I remember Stephen Colbert making fun of the fact that the Chinese cut changed Mandarin's name to "Man Darren," which is something that fooled approximately zero viewers.
The Chinese cut didn't change his name at all — because he's named after a bureaucrat scholar in Imperial China and they know it. (I suspect Colbert was simply making a joke.)

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#106072: Jul 25th 2019 at 3:06:50 AM

To say nothing of the fact that the main dialect of Chinese is called Mandarin Chinese.

"Mandarin" honestly sounds a lot less intimidating to people who actually know Chinese. It'd be like a supervillain whose codename is "Lawyer" or "Actuary".

"Beware the Actuary and his Ten Calculators of Power!"

Though tbf, being a bureaucrat was a very big deal in those times. China was and still is pretty big on bureaucracy.

Edited by M84 on Jul 25th 2019 at 6:11:35 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#106073: Jul 25th 2019 at 3:26:19 AM

"Mandarin" honestly sounds a lot less intimidating to people who actually know Chinese. It'd be like a supervillain whose codename is "Lawyer" or "Actuary".

Given the disdain for lawyers in pop culture, a supervillain with the name "lawyer" might not be too surprising.tongue

Edited by windleopard on Jul 25th 2019 at 4:11:05 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#106074: Jul 25th 2019 at 3:28:32 AM

Eh, I've never been a fan of the Evil Lawyer Joke myself.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#106075: Jul 25th 2019 at 4:00:50 AM

to be fair, it's far from the silliest supervillain name we had :p


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