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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
There are definitely characters I can see working in films that don't involve Peter Parker. The first are characters that have minimal to do with Spider-Man anyway, they just happen to use the "spider" moniker:
And then there are characters that are connected to Peter Parker, but Peter himself doesn't have to show up in their movies:
- Silk (Cindy Moon)
, bitten by the same radioactive spider (or a different one if they want to change the origin).
- Scarlet Spider
(Ben Reilly or Kaine Parker), a clone of Peter Parker. You can handwave away the difference in looks (since you don't want them played by Tom Holland) by calling them a "failed clone" or using "genetic drift" or something.
- Spider-Woman/Ghost Spider (Gwen Stacy)
, which they've already introduced to mainstream audiences via ITSV. Hell, they can even get Hailee Steinfeld
to play her in live action, too. (They could even get Tom Holland to possibly cameo via flashback to her Peter dying.)
I'm not sure why Sony is intent on using Spider-Man's Rogues Gallery for spin-off movies, considering that most of them work only as villains. Venom is the one that was an Ensemble Dark Horse in the comics and was quickly turned into an anti-hero, so it makes sense that he would work as an anti-hero in the movies, but the others...not so much.
Here are the villains I can see working in their own movies:
Hear me out with the Doctor Octopus one: Doc Ock has been one of the most consistently popular Spider-characters ever and has even had his turn as an anti-hero (the Superior Spider-Man) and is currently trying to be a hero and somewhat redeem himself (the current run of Superior Spider-Man is very good or so I've heard). Sure, he still needs his background with Peter Parker, but I can definitely see him showing up in Spider-Man 3: The Home Front as one of Peter's allies and then, in the post-credits scene, becoming Doc Ock. And then his own movie is about the struggle he has with morality.
Now, this isn't at all to say that Sony can't make movies with other villains work. Smart writing and smart directing can pretty much make anything work. But I think, like Venom, those characters could work on their own despite poor writing/directing.
I can see a Kraven's Last Hunt-inspired story, but the material itself is dark to the point it'll probably never be adapted. You'll notice Kraven the Hunter has showed up in almost every single Spider-Man cartoon yet not a single one has even tried to adapt KLH (occasional Mythology Gag aside).
In a film, what I could vaguely see would be a MCU film dealing with Kraven being alive on borrowed time, capturing Spider-Man to prove he's better than him, maybe pretending to be Spider-Man for a bit before Spidey breaks out and outdoes him, leaving Kraven beaten psychologically before doing some form of Suicide by Cop and expiring. Those ideas are all usable, as he wouldn't even be the first Spidey cinematic villain who kills himself, Doctor Octopus also ends his own life via Heroic Sacrifice in Spider-Man 2 (nor the first MCU one, as Killmonger chooses to die in Black Panther and Ivan Vanko willingly blew himself up way back in Iron Man II). I can envision Kraven's suicide being adapted as a build-up of his completely wrecked physique and he dies after willingly pushing his body too far (probably after a climatic showdown with Spidey), having a Alas, Poor Villain moment as he lies dying allá Killmonger.
The bits I'm sure as Hell would never make out: the overall oppressive atmosphere, themes of mortality and frailty of life, Spidey being buried alive in a coffin and having nightmares about giant spiders and dead friends, Kraven's long monologues about the decay of modern society and the insanity of his mother, Kraven blowing his own brains out, and the overall theme of him Dying Alone (I imagine a adaptation would have him dying in Spider-Man's arms or something akin to it, like Killmonger's death).
"All you Fascists bound to lose."I've always felt that Kraven is, in some ways, Spidey's most petty villain. He doesn't even have a real reason to target Spidey at all — he does it just because Spidey is there.
KLH for example is all about Kraven going through a breakdown and lashing out at Spidey in response, projecting all of his issues onto the webslinger rather than actually deal with them in a more constructive manner.
Ultimate comics Kraven basically emphasized the sheer pettiness of the character, showing just how pathetic he really is. Heck, he arguably shows how pathetic the Egomaniac Hunter archtype is in general.
Edited by M84 on Jul 7th 2019 at 10:33:09 PM
Disgusted, but not surprisedThe Venom mention made me think...
Come to think of it, the MCU hasn't done the classic comic book "friend/ally/supporting character/acquaintace/whatever, yadda yadda horrible ordeal / accident, yadda yadda becomes a supervillain and the hero has to stop them" bit yet, has it? Closest one is Loki, and even then the Thor series is a long lesson for Thor in how Loki was always a dick and that his turn wasn't really Thor's problem.
And we haven't had any Face Monster Turns at all in the whole MCU. Huh. I don't know why but that actually is kind of surprising to me. Maybe because it was such a running thing in basically every Spider-Man film before the MCU, and because pretty much every hero in both Marvel and DC has at least one.
There aren't a whole lot of Anti Villains in the MCU in general, though we're starting to get more of those nowadays.
Eddie Brock (at least as he's often depicted nowadays, though not originally) would have been an easy use of that if Sony hadn't already introduced a new, not-particularly-connected-to-Spidey Venom. But Spidey's got a few of those anyway. And it's kind of funny that our verse's primary Kid Hero series hasn't done a Kid Villain yet.
Then again, I don't really want to see Harry again either. And if we get Hobgoblin, the entire point would be it being subverted with Ned (since Ned would be framed). And I love Curt Connors but don't particularly want to see Lizard again so soon. Maybe Mr. Negative, though.
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Face–Monster Turn encompasses cases of brainwashing, so Bucky is an example.
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I feel that may have been the source of a lot of criticisms the MCU's villains got early on. A lot of them were just villains. They didn't have much of a strong connection to anything. They were just kinda assholes. There was no meat to them or their relationships with the heroes. And they weren't given enough screen time or leeway to be entertainingly hammy.
Edited by GNinja on Jul 7th 2019 at 3:20:24 PM
Kaze ni Nare!Well... don't get me wrong, I like villains who are just villains. I think the attachment to having every villain a hero faces be the most personal enemy the hero has ever had up that point ever is something that seriously held back superhero films before that point, especially where Spider-Man was concerned. And the MCU has its fair share of personal enemies. It's just that villains with nuance beyond being evil was rare.
Arguably, the attachment to making villains extremely personal would have made this trope difficult to do before anyway. There's a point to be made that Raimi's Spider-Man and Nolan's Batman had issues making villains sympathetic unless they were extremely dramatic about it, when sometimes you want those kinds of characters to be a part of something bigger and not necessarily be the center of attention.
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But wouldn't you say the majority of the best regarded MCU films are the ones that have villains with nuance?
Having a villain who's just a villain is fine, but the MCU rarely let them be fun in that. Arguably Mysterio (I'm not sure what the stance is on whether to count this as a spoiler or not) is one of the only villains who seems to just cut loose with being cartoonishly petty.
Kaze ni Nare!It's about fifty fifty. For every Civil War where the big bad has a sympathetic yet terrible motive, you have a Winter Soldier where the bad guys are just fascist pricks. It's not an inherent rule that movies with sympathetic bad guys are immediately better. What matters it the execution of those villains within the story.
This really is a case in point, though without spoiling we can go but so far on it.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 7th 2019 at 10:33:39 AM
In my personal opinion, a villain who's just an asshole can work as long as 1) He's still entertaining to watch and 2) His motive makes sense in the context of his character. Conversely, a sympathetic villain can fall flat if he isn't particularly interesting or if his motive makes little sense once you take five seconds to think a little about it.
One thing I hate is when the writers try to portray the villain as sympathetic but end up making them too hateful and/or boring.
Disgusted, but not surprisedI recently watched the Yugioh Bonds Beyond Times movie Abridged & it made immense fun of how the antagonist of the film is that generic time traveler who comes back to prevent a future apocalypse by the heroes pointing out his actions are completely illogical & nonsense since he’s causing death & destruction despite claiming to be saving the world.
Which can be used as a dig against all time travel based villains who claim they are the hero.
Edited by slimcoder on Jul 8th 2019 at 3:23:14 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Yeah, loved that Abridged movie XD one of my favourite from Little Kuriboh.
Personally one of the villains who I feel especially fail is Aldritch Killian (though admittedly he isn't meant to be too sympathetic, but still, the implication is that Tony made him go wrong). I mean, putting completely aside my personal dislike of the Mandarin twist, how did he get from "Tony Stark left me hanging once" to "I will become an Evil Genius who sells unstable nanotech while making a fake terrorist to blame its deffects on"? To say that escalated quickly doesn't even begin to describe it.
Edited by Theokal3 on Jul 8th 2019 at 11:49:55 AM
Here is the exchange in question where the heroes deconstruct the villain, Paradox’s logic.
Yusei: How did card games destroy the world?
Paradox: Well, I was not actually there. But I heard that somebody played and a card game and then boom! End of the world. It totally happened! Just I said! Just card game; BOOM! Everyone dead.
Jaden: Ok, but how does stealing cards and killing people make everything better?
Paradox: Look, I planned this!
Jaden: So explain it!
Yusei: Yeah, explain your great plan!
Paradox: All I had to do was invent time travel, then go back in time, and kill Pegasus. And then the future would be better!
Yami: You also killed Yugi's grandpa.
Paradox: And Yugi's grandpa! I totally meant to do that too. My plan is great!
Yusei: Also, a lot of innocent people died.
Paradox: Yes, there was a little collateral damage. Probably not important. My plan is great!
Jaden: Then why are you riding around on a motorcycle, wearing an evil mask, stealing people's cards and laughing like a maniac? Does that sound like a hero?
Paradox: Well when you put it like that, not really but, uh…
Jaden: Then what the Hell, Man?! WHAT THE ACTUAL HELL?!?!
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."Pls forgive him he's an android made by a ancient Yusei fanboy cosplayer. He can't help his shriveled hands fumbled a bit when imprinting Paradox mind from his fleshy dead old man body to the metallic one.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jul 8th 2019 at 3:29:00 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

It was the buddy comedy no one knew they wanted. Still was dumb but it was endearingly dumb.