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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#104726: Jul 7th 2019 at 4:46:39 PM

It was the buddy comedy no one knew they wanted. Still was dumb but it was endearingly dumb.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#104727: Jul 7th 2019 at 4:53:45 PM

There are definitely characters I can see working in films that don't involve Peter Parker. The first are characters that have minimal to do with Spider-Man anyway, they just happen to use the "spider" moniker:

And then there are characters that are connected to Peter Parker, but Peter himself doesn't have to show up in their movies:

  • Silk (Cindy Moon), bitten by the same radioactive spider (or a different one if they want to change the origin).
  • Scarlet Spider (Ben Reilly or Kaine Parker), a clone of Peter Parker. You can handwave away the difference in looks (since you don't want them played by Tom Holland) by calling them a "failed clone" or using "genetic drift" or something.
  • Spider-Woman/Ghost Spider (Gwen Stacy), which they've already introduced to mainstream audiences via ITSV. Hell, they can even get Hailee Steinfeld to play her in live action, too. (They could even get Tom Holland to possibly cameo via flashback to her Peter dying.)

I'm not sure why Sony is intent on using Spider-Man's Rogues Gallery for spin-off movies, considering that most of them work only as villains. Venom is the one that was an Ensemble Dark Horse in the comics and was quickly turned into an anti-hero, so it makes sense that he would work as an anti-hero in the movies, but the others...not so much.

Here are the villains I can see working in their own movies:

Hear me out with the Doctor Octopus one: Doc Ock has been one of the most consistently popular Spider-characters ever and has even had his turn as an anti-hero (the Superior Spider-Man) and is currently trying to be a hero and somewhat redeem himself (the current run of Superior Spider-Man is very good or so I've heard). Sure, he still needs his background with Peter Parker, but I can definitely see him showing up in Spider-Man 3: The Home Front as one of Peter's allies and then, in the post-credits scene, becoming Doc Ock. And then his own movie is about the struggle he has with morality.

Now, this isn't at all to say that Sony can't make movies with other villains work. Smart writing and smart directing can pretty much make anything work. But I think, like Venom, those characters could work on their own despite poor writing/directing.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#104728: Jul 7th 2019 at 4:55:53 PM

In regards to Kraven's Last Hunt, I meant more the subject matter.

Like the story ends with Kraven actually committing suicide & that's without mentioning burying Spider-Man alive & impersonating him.

Would they be willing to adapt that?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#104729: Jul 7th 2019 at 5:26:00 PM

Willing? Yes. Able? Probably not.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#104730: Jul 7th 2019 at 5:53:22 PM

I can see a Kraven's Last Hunt-inspired story, but the material itself is dark to the point it'll probably never be adapted. You'll notice Kraven the Hunter has showed up in almost every single Spider-Man cartoon yet not a single one has even tried to adapt KLH (occasional Mythology Gag aside).

In a film, what I could vaguely see would be a MCU film dealing with Kraven being alive on borrowed time, capturing Spider-Man to prove he's better than him, maybe pretending to be Spider-Man for a bit before Spidey breaks out and outdoes him, leaving Kraven beaten psychologically before doing some form of Suicide by Cop and expiring. Those ideas are all usable, as he wouldn't even be the first Spidey cinematic villain who kills himself, Doctor Octopus also ends his own life via Heroic Sacrifice in Spider-Man 2 (nor the first MCU one, as Killmonger chooses to die in Black Panther and Ivan Vanko willingly blew himself up way back in Iron Man II). I can envision Kraven's suicide being adapted as a build-up of his completely wrecked physique and he dies after willingly pushing his body too far (probably after a climatic showdown with Spidey), having a Alas, Poor Villain moment as he lies dying allá Killmonger.

The bits I'm sure as Hell would never make out: the overall oppressive atmosphere, themes of mortality and frailty of life, Spidey being buried alive in a coffin and having nightmares about giant spiders and dead friends, Kraven's long monologues about the decay of modern society and the insanity of his mother, Kraven blowing his own brains out, and the overall theme of him Dying Alone (I imagine a adaptation would have him dying in Spider-Man's arms or something akin to it, like Killmonger's death).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#104731: Jul 7th 2019 at 6:08:09 PM

Spidey being buried alive in a coffin and having nightmares about giant spiders and dead friends
After what happened in Far From Home (spoilers: Mysterio making an illusion of a zombified Iron Man with spiders crawling from his eye sockets), I can definitely see them doing this.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#104732: Jul 7th 2019 at 6:10:41 PM

It occurs to me of all of Spiderman's villains Mysterio would be the hardest to implement on screen without CGI,almost impossible even due to his illusions

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#104733: Jul 7th 2019 at 7:31:11 PM

I've always felt that Kraven is, in some ways, Spidey's most petty villain. He doesn't even have a real reason to target Spidey at all — he does it just because Spidey is there.

KLH for example is all about Kraven going through a breakdown and lashing out at Spidey in response, projecting all of his issues onto the webslinger rather than actually deal with them in a more constructive manner.

Ultimate comics Kraven basically emphasized the sheer pettiness of the character, showing just how pathetic he really is. Heck, he arguably shows how pathetic the Egomaniac Hunter archtype is in general.

Edited by M84 on Jul 7th 2019 at 10:33:09 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#104734: Jul 7th 2019 at 7:58:04 PM

The Venom mention made me think...

Come to think of it, the MCU hasn't done the classic comic book "friend/ally/supporting character/acquaintace/whatever, yadda yadda horrible ordeal / accident, yadda yadda becomes a supervillain and the hero has to stop them" bit yet, has it? Closest one is Loki, and even then the Thor series is a long lesson for Thor in how Loki was always a dick and that his turn wasn't really Thor's problem.

And we haven't had any Face Monster Turns at all in the whole MCU. Huh. I don't know why but that actually is kind of surprising to me. Maybe because it was such a running thing in basically every Spider-Man film before the MCU, and because pretty much every hero in both Marvel and DC has at least one.

There aren't a whole lot of Anti Villains in the MCU in general, though we're starting to get more of those nowadays.

Eddie Brock (at least as he's often depicted nowadays, though not originally) would have been an easy use of that if Sony hadn't already introduced a new, not-particularly-connected-to-Spidey Venom. But Spidey's got a few of those anyway. And it's kind of funny that our verse's primary Kid Hero series hasn't done a Kid Villain yet.

Then again, I don't really want to see Harry again either. And if we get Hobgoblin, the entire point would be it being subverted with Ned (since Ned would be framed). And I love Curt Connors but don't particularly want to see Lizard again so soon. Maybe Mr. Negative, though.

Or Screwball, lol.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#104735: Jul 7th 2019 at 8:05:46 PM

Still gotta do something with Mac Gargan.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#104736: Jul 7th 2019 at 8:15:56 PM

[up][up] Face–Monster Turn encompasses cases of brainwashing, so Bucky is an example.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#104737: Jul 7th 2019 at 8:19:43 PM

[up][up][up] I feel that may have been the source of a lot of criticisms the MCU's villains got early on. A lot of them were just villains. They didn't have much of a strong connection to anything. They were just kinda assholes. There was no meat to them or their relationships with the heroes. And they weren't given enough screen time or leeway to be entertainingly hammy.

Edited by GNinja on Jul 7th 2019 at 3:20:24 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#104738: Jul 7th 2019 at 8:38:32 PM

Well... don't get me wrong, I like villains who are just villains. I think the attachment to having every villain a hero faces be the most personal enemy the hero has ever had up that point ever is something that seriously held back superhero films before that point, especially where Spider-Man was concerned. And the MCU has its fair share of personal enemies. It's just that villains with nuance beyond being evil was rare.

Arguably, the attachment to making villains extremely personal would have made this trope difficult to do before anyway. There's a point to be made that Raimi's Spider-Man and Nolan's Batman had issues making villains sympathetic unless they were extremely dramatic about it, when sometimes you want those kinds of characters to be a part of something bigger and not necessarily be the center of attention.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#104739: Jul 7th 2019 at 8:58:22 PM

Going to see Spider-Man tomorrow, is it worth it to watch in 3D?

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#104740: Jul 7th 2019 at 9:20:22 PM

[up][up] But wouldn't you say the majority of the best regarded MCU films are the ones that have villains with nuance?

Having a villain who's just a villain is fine, but the MCU rarely let them be fun in that. Arguably Mysterio (I'm not sure what the stance is on whether to count this as a spoiler or not) is one of the only villains who seems to just cut loose with being cartoonishly petty.

Kaze ni Nare!
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#104741: Jul 7th 2019 at 9:22:22 PM

Mysterio is a narcissistic manipulative shithead with nary a redeeming quality, and he's an incredible villain.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#104742: Jul 7th 2019 at 10:31:42 PM

But wouldn't you say the majority of the best regarded MCU films are the ones that have villains with nuance?

It's about fifty fifty. For every Civil War where the big bad has a sympathetic yet terrible motive, you have a Winter Soldier where the bad guys are just fascist pricks. It's not an inherent rule that movies with sympathetic bad guys are immediately better. What matters it the execution of those villains within the story.

[up] This really is a case in point, though without spoiling we can go but so far on it.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 7th 2019 at 10:33:39 AM

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#104743: Jul 8th 2019 at 1:20:46 AM

In my personal opinion, a villain who's just an asshole can work as long as 1) He's still entertaining to watch and 2) His motive makes sense in the context of his character. Conversely, a sympathetic villain can fall flat if he isn't particularly interesting or if his motive makes little sense once you take five seconds to think a little about it.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#104744: Jul 8th 2019 at 1:30:21 AM

One thing I hate is when the writers try to portray the villain as sympathetic but end up making them too hateful and/or boring.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#104745: Jul 8th 2019 at 1:36:40 AM

I recently watched the Yugioh Bonds Beyond Times movie Abridged & it made immense fun of how the antagonist of the film is that generic time traveler who comes back to prevent a future apocalypse by the heroes pointing out his actions are completely illogical & nonsense since he’s causing death & destruction despite claiming to be saving the world.

Which can be used as a dig against all time travel based villains who claim they are the hero.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 8th 2019 at 3:23:14 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#104746: Jul 8th 2019 at 2:49:19 AM

[up]Yeah, loved that Abridged movie XD one of my favourite from Little Kuriboh.

Personally one of the villains who I feel especially fail is Aldritch Killian (though admittedly he isn't meant to be too sympathetic, but still, the implication is that Tony made him go wrong). I mean, putting completely aside my personal dislike of the Mandarin twist, how did he get from "Tony Stark left me hanging once" to "I will become an Evil Genius who sells unstable nanotech while making a fake terrorist to blame its deffects on"? To say that escalated quickly doesn't even begin to describe it.

Edited by Theokal3 on Jul 8th 2019 at 11:49:55 AM

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#104747: Jul 8th 2019 at 3:00:22 AM

An epiphany about how pathetic his life is when he was about to commit suicide and no one would care if he died.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jul 8th 2019 at 3:01:25 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#104748: Jul 8th 2019 at 3:25:15 AM

Here is the exchange in question where the heroes deconstruct the villain, Paradox’s logic. tongue

Yusei: How did card games destroy the world?

Paradox: Well, I was not actually there. But I heard that somebody played and a card game and then boom! End of the world. It totally happened! Just I said! Just card game; BOOM! Everyone dead.

Jaden: Ok, but how does stealing cards and killing people make everything better?

Paradox: Look, I planned this!

Jaden: So explain it!

Yusei: Yeah, explain your great plan!

Paradox: All I had to do was invent time travel, then go back in time, and kill Pegasus. And then the future would be better!

Yami: You also killed Yugi's grandpa.

Paradox: And Yugi's grandpa! I totally meant to do that too. My plan is great!

Yusei: Also, a lot of innocent people died.

Paradox: Yes, there was a little collateral damage. Probably not important. My plan is great!

Jaden: Then why are you riding around on a motorcycle, wearing an evil mask, stealing people's cards and laughing like a maniac? Does that sound like a hero?

Paradox: Well when you put it like that, not really but, uh…

Jaden: Then what the Hell, Man?! WHAT THE ACTUAL HELL?!?!

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#104749: Jul 8th 2019 at 3:28:04 AM

Pls forgive him he's an android made by a ancient Yusei fanboy cosplayer. He can't help his shriveled hands fumbled a bit when imprinting Paradox mind from his fleshy dead old man body to the metallic one.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jul 8th 2019 at 3:29:00 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#104750: Jul 8th 2019 at 3:35:42 AM

In fairness to Paradox, the card game is responsible for a lot of bad stuff in universe such as destroying an Ancient Egyptians kingdom and driving a woman to insanity which resulted in her joining a doomsday cult.


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