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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#104276: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:34:28 PM

That argument has been in place since the very genesis of the X-Men.

There has been great stories, no doubt, but it is a very flawed allegory.

Edited by HailMuffins on Jun 25th 2019 at 5:35:38 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#104277: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:46:28 PM

Yeah. Real-life oppressed groups typically can't summon a meteor shower to bombard continents they dislike, or generate an F-1000000 tornado to literally wipe Kansas off the face of the Earth. With how stupidly powerful some Mutants get, some form of cautionary arms development really is warranted, even if kept in reserve for a bad day, because the rest of the world is fucked if one of them goes nuts and the normies have no riposte. You can try and trust the X-Men to always step in and save the day from the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, but then you're basically back in a Sokovia Accords situation.

And Professor X himself is far from infalliable.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Jun 25th 2019 at 4:51:16 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#104278: Jun 25th 2019 at 2:09:56 PM

But then again, that's what other superheroes are for.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#104279: Jun 25th 2019 at 2:12:56 PM

[up][up]That's another thing I want them to take from Evolution: Charles Xavier as a fallible but deeply compassionate man rather than the manipulative, creepy Ephebophile from the comics.

Edited by HailMuffins on Jun 25th 2019 at 6:13:07 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#104280: Jun 25th 2019 at 2:24:57 PM

[up]

Hell yes. I don't mind Charles being imperfect and making mistakes, but some of the shit they revealed he did ( like the reveal that there was another team before the all new all different team that he got killed) utterly undermined his better points.

Flawed doesn't mean so many skeletons that you'd think his closet was a graveyard.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#104281: Jun 25th 2019 at 2:36:30 PM

It's the reason why the X-Men actually work better in a shared universe than an isolated one.

Sure, real-life minority groups can't shoot lasers out of their eyes. Neither can real-life majority groups. The X-Men off-center this dynamic by giving minorities the ability to shoot lasers, but the existence of other supers rebalances it by giving the majority the ability to shoot lasers too.

"Cyclops is dangerous because he has laser beams!"

Okay. Sure. But why are you totally fine with Captain Marvel shooting laser breams? Why is that not a problem? We love your laser beams, Carol! But we hate Scott's laser beams! Scott is bad because he has lasers, but Carol is awesome because she has lasers!

It's that exact irrational disconnect from logic that lays prejudice bare. Why is it okay for white guys to walk around with rifles slung over their shoulders, but it's not okay for black guys to do the same? For the same reason that Carol is a beloved hero for shooting lasers at villains and Scott is a menace to society for shooting lasers at villains. Because racism.

The MCU has a lot to offer to the X-Men franchise. It allows their metaphor to operate in a world where pro-Hulk merchandise exists.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 25th 2019 at 3:38:46 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#104282: Jun 25th 2019 at 2:40:20 PM

Earlier somebody compared the use of Sentinels to a SWAT team. Now I have this image of this kid having a Sentinel sent to a mutant's house because he beat him at Fortnite or something. So Swatting, but with giant killer robots.

... Would that be in bad taste to show in an X-Men series?

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#104283: Jun 25th 2019 at 4:07:21 PM

Just being a mutant means that a giant robot will blow up your block for being green. Think swatting is bad? Just wait until a city looks like a war zone because some asshole.

Wake me up at your own risk.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#104284: Jun 25th 2019 at 4:15:50 PM

I don't think the "racism is arbitrary" thing works. Generally speaking, bigots tend to be not at all shy about lumping different groups of people together, so long as they seem similarly "other". Like, how many Islamophobes make a distinction between Sunnis and Shiities?

The "mutants are completely different from people who get their powers by accident" line of thinking is more something that someone with powers would say to justify still hating mutants, but it doesn't make as much sense coming from non-powered folks.

I still think the best way to handle it is to say that people like superheroes, who they see on TV fighting aliens and stuff, but that's different from wanting someone with powers living next door to you, or going to school with your kids.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#104285: Jun 25th 2019 at 4:38:17 PM

That's always been my exact problem with the X-Men.

Real-life minority groups (in particular the ones who get stereotyped for being more "dangerous" such as black or middle-eastern people) are not fundamentally different from majority groups in terms of what they can do, because well, we're all human at the end of the day and most of our differences are phenotypical and cultural. That's at the heart of why that prejudice is so irrational and harmful.

But with mutants it's different. Many of the X-Men have powers that are extremely dangerous to themselves and others if they are not properly taught to control them, that's part of why Xavier opened his school to begin with, to teach mutants to hone their gifts so they don't have to be afraid. Does this justify the prejudice and inhumane treatment of mutants? Well of course not, but they are in such a fundamentally different situation to the point where the allegory doesn't really work for me.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jun 25th 2019 at 7:43:24 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#104286: Jun 25th 2019 at 4:40:12 PM

Like if there was a mutant who could turn whole cities into skittles they'd use them as a stand in for persecuted groups,despite the fact their power turns people into skittles

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#104287: Jun 25th 2019 at 4:51:49 PM

I think another factor for why they make the distinction is because of the fear of being replaced. Super-powered people who get their abilities from gamma radiations, a super-serum or similar stuff are basically anomaly that are either unique, or, in the case of aliens, distant. Mutants are actively portrayed as "the next stage in human evolution" (which makes no sense scientifically speaking but eh, racist people aren't known for being well-informed), get their powers naturally, and anyone could turn out to be one. Some fanatic humans probably see them as a threat because they could slowly replace humans and cause them go extinct — which actually matches rather well with some really stupid arguments given by racists who think mixing with other ethnic groups will cause white people to disappear.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#104288: Jun 25th 2019 at 5:05:29 PM

I've read it once, though I can't remember where, that the Mutants works better as an allegory for the mentally ill, where a small, statistically almost insignificant number, are actually dangerous but the rest of "normal" treat all of them as Jokers-in-waiting, when in truth the overwhelming majority are, at worst, a danger to themselves, more likely to be hurt by "normal" people than hurting anyone else.

Would need some work, sure, but might be an angle worth exploring.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#104289: Jun 25th 2019 at 5:08:05 PM

ffs it does not work with comparisons with the mentally ill!

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#104290: Jun 25th 2019 at 5:12:03 PM

[up][up][up] Is that not how it works though? This always seemed very ill explained to me. Are mutants NOT the next stage in human evolution? Is it confirmed that mutant genes aren't dominant and unpowered humans won't ever truly vanish?

Because the fear of being replaced. Honestly, I do kinda sympathize with the unpowered people here. In the real world it's stupid because people are people. We all have similar parameters we fall into. You're basically powerless in the marvel world. Any problems that arise with powered people, you need to let other powered people, most of whom aren't beholden to any kind of government, handle the situation. All the top people in the various fields of the world are most likely meta humans too. Non powered humans are objectively inferior to mutants. And not within any kind of reasonable standards, but to a ridiculous degree. You will never bench press more than Collosus. You will never beat Quicksilver in a race. No matter how hard you try. And neither of those people had to do a single thing to manage what you could never dream of.

Edited by GNinja on Jun 25th 2019 at 12:12:32 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#104291: Jun 25th 2019 at 5:16:55 PM

[up]Last I checked the Mutants are the result of alien tampering with primitive humans, but the X-Gene remained dormant until the nuclear testings where the mutation started popping up.

Hence "Children of the Atom", see.

One of the suggestions of integrating the X-Men to the MCU is keeping the "Celestial scientists messing around" aspect but change the catalyst from nuclear radiation to the energy released in the Snap, so as to keep the whole deal in-line with the original vision of Lee and Kirby/Ditko/whoever was the artist working with Stan at the time.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#104292: Jun 25th 2019 at 5:19:32 PM

The angles of “it’s actually about mental illness” or “it’s actually about being gay” tend not to solve the problem with making a marginalized group actually dangerous in text.

The “it’s about fear of replacement” holds more water, but it’s stymied by that Marvel Comics doesn’t want their setting to change the way that mutants would permanently change the world to make room for themselves.

    I ramble about one of my own stories for a few paragraphs 

There’s a story I’ve been working on that uses people with powers to examine racial fears and reactions, but there’s a number of important details to provide the analogy support.

1. It’s not a replacement for race. It’s explicitly made clear the government is using the threat of superpowers as an excuse to police communities of color, while largely ignoring white people affected by the Storm. Most of the arrested don’t have any powers.

2. The antagonists are more worried about the transforming cultural landscape. It’s not about containing powers, it’s about keeping everyone from realizing there are more ways for society to be, ways where the antagonists are not in power.

3. People connected to The Storm sometimes get supernatural powers, but most are incapable of harming anybody with them. The effects are mundane and only get pronounced if you go out of your way to pack a lot of said people in a small zone where their lives are in danger.

Still refining it, but I hope it’ll work.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 25th 2019 at 5:21:15 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#104293: Jun 25th 2019 at 5:25:43 PM

Like, I can't decide if the Mutants as minority allegory is better or worse than the Deus Ex Mankind Divided "augs = minority" allegory. Where in the last game all augmented people on the planet went crazy and MURDERED people for several minutes. So in MD they're segregated and it's treated as unfair.

Edited by GNinja on Jun 25th 2019 at 12:26:44 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#104294: Jun 25th 2019 at 5:50:41 PM

@Hail Muffins: I think the "metal illness is a better analogy for mutantkind" thing might have come from me, as I've made this conclusion before in these topics, after watching Legion.

I would say the "neuro-atypicals" analogy is my preferred one these days because I find it the closest (and one of the most pertinent), but all analogies with the Mutants break down if you hold it under too much scrutiny. One of the problems is that both the fanbase and the comics focus far too much on the "I can blow up buildings with my fingertips" mutants rather than the "I can no longer walk because my legs are tentacles" mutants. Powers with drawbacks (to the point they barely count as powers) and more low-key abilities would help a lot these discussions.

I remember there was one mutant whose power was that his digestive system did not exist (literally, you could tell on sight he didn't have a stomach because his belly was clearly empty) and instead came in the form of two slugs with acid spit that he carried and controlled that digested things and passed the nutrients to him. That's the kind of weird and mostly harmless shit I'm talking about.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#104295: Jun 25th 2019 at 6:11:02 PM

I'd say the closest comparison I can think of is people being scared of machines taking their livelihoods away from them.

The legend has returned.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#104296: Jun 25th 2019 at 6:11:10 PM

I remember there was one mutant whose power was that his digestive system did not exist (literally, you could tell on sight he didn't have a stomach because his belly was clearly empty) and instead came in the form of two slugs with acid spit that he carried and controlled that digested things and passed the nutrients to him. That's the kind of weird and mostly harmless shit I'm talking about.
That's Maggott. Maggott is awesome.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#104297: Jun 25th 2019 at 6:24:02 PM

Because the fear of being replaced. Honestly, I do kinda sympathize with the unpowered people here.

I wish we got more stories about mundanes trying to become mutants. It's apparently just one gene or small collection of genes (which doesn't actually make scientific sense, but whatever), it would be relatively easy to use gene therapy to give it to other people. There are a lot of interesting stories you could do with that.

The closest we got was X-Men 1, when Magneto tried to turn people into mutants against their will, but they sidestepped that moral quandary by just having it be seemingly lethal.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#104298: Jun 25th 2019 at 6:30:38 PM

That's Maggott. Maggott is awesome.

Thanks. He is indeed awesome.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#104299: Jun 25th 2019 at 6:33:06 PM

They've tried to do that with the Morlocks, but despite them being one of my favorite parts of X-Men I don't think they get much in the way of focus.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#104300: Jun 25th 2019 at 6:35:45 PM

[up][up][up]...Oh geez that gave me flashbacks to Morrison's run on X-Men. The U-Men, Sublime, Kick, Quentin Quire, Magneto becoming a genocidal maniac...ugh.

Edited by M84 on Jun 25th 2019 at 9:38:39 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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