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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#103651: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:33:00 AM

And all that tells you isn’t that he loves Gamora, it more specifically that what he considers to be love is good enough sacrifice for the Stone. It doesn’t inform any of his actions. It doesn’t even follow from that that sacrificing Gamora is actually just even if he loves her.

This is why I’ve pointed out that that interpretation requires Cherry Picking: you have to, specifically, approach the scene with the perception that being good enough for the Stone makes you a good person, the assumption that the Stone is the arbiter of good and evil in the film, and the exclusion of the everything about both the scene itself and the film beyond what supports that interpretation.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 11th 2019 at 11:35:28 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#103652: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:33:57 AM

The Soul Stone probably has killed fewer people than the Power Stone or Space Stone have for random example. What with being on a dead planet in the middle of nowhere space that only a handful of people know about and they're not going to be telling.

Its no great moral failing to put the Soul Stone back where nobody had found it for thousands of years.

Edited by Bocaj on Jun 11th 2019 at 2:34:50 PM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#103653: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:34:06 AM

Also the idea that love is this pure, objectively-good thing and Thanos being capable of it means the narrative has declared him righteous is kinda silly and one-dimensional.

Kilgrave genuinely loved Jessica Jones, and look how that turned out. For everybody else and in the end even himself.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#103654: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:35:33 AM

I wonder if Kilgrave's ablity would on Thanos,or not,you don't normally charm the final boss

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#103655: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:36:17 AM

Dammit Jessica, you killed Earth’s only hope!

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#103656: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:36:23 AM

You're right. That's what happens. Gamora is wrong; Thanos does love her. That doesn't make him not an abusive prick or genocidal madman.

Being capable of love doesn't mean you aren't still an abusive, genocidal villain.

No, it does not. But it does not condemn him for it, either. Indeed, the writers intend for you to feel bad for him, which is itself a telling window into their treatment of the character.

He murders his daughter to advance his genocidal ambitions, and you are meant to take his side and feel bad for his "sacrifice". You are meant to believe that he truly loves this person whose life he threw away for a chance at murdering half the universe, and to cry for his "tragic loss".

And that, right there, is the problem of Thanos. As I said before, the writers want you to see him as a tragic and complex figure. Even as he consistently does horrifying things, the film refuses to actually condemn this atrocity of a person. Thanos is a monster. But the film refuses to treat him as one.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 11th 2019 at 12:37:08 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#103657: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:36:50 AM

I should get back on JJ season 1. Sadly it looks like I'll be skipping season 2 since I've heard less-than-ideal things about it.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#103658: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:38:08 AM

[up][up] Your incessant hatred of Thanos is getting kinda grating.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#103659: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:39:27 AM

At this point, Tobias is debating solely in bad faith and should be ignored. We crossed that line when he brought up Trump and Nazis, and we're still over that line.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#103660: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:41:07 AM

The Soul Stone probably has killed fewer people than the Power Stone or Space Stone have for random example. What with being on a dead planet in the middle of nowhere space that only a handful of people know about and they're not going to be telling.

Its no great moral failing to put the Soul Stone back where nobody had found it for thousands of years.

A loaded gun will deal less damage than a bomb but it’s still irresponsible to leave one lying around.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#103661: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:42:48 AM

[up][up][up][up]It's... eh. It's basically all of Season 1's small flaws cranked up to eleven, with none of the stuff that actually made the show good in the first place. At least the other poorly-received Netflix seasons still had some flashy fight scenes to keep you entertained amidst the muddied plots, while JJ S2's greatest sin is being unbearably boring on top of everything else.

I'd still recommend it if you plan to watch Sesaon 3, since no doubt it'll be important there, but if you're not interested in getting the full JJ experience then yeah, just stick with Season 1.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Jun 11th 2019 at 2:43:53 PM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#103662: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:44:39 AM
Thumped: This post was thumped by moderation to preserve the dignity of the author.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#103663: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:45:08 AM

I really loved Season 2 of Jessica Jones, and I thought the villain was just as good as Kilgrave. That said, I can't deny that it's divisive, but it might be worth watching the first few episodes just to see if it strikes your fancy.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jun 11th 2019 at 11:46:14 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#103664: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:45:43 AM

I actually found Thanos really.... anticlimactic as a villain. Like the snippets of him in prior films worked, especially in Got G, but... he just didn’t work for me in IW and Endgame. The build up led to nothing for me. Ego? Horrifying and compelling reflection on selfishness. Vulture? Scary and understandable (his motivations read to me as pretty standard entitlement; I have been Wronged so now I do crime). Killmonger? Oh damn, the charismatic but violent end result of what loss and systemic oppression can create.

Thanos, though? We see him too much, and he’s diminished. His motives and speeches just didn’t work for me. He’s not a scathing indictment of something real; he’s half-baked and there’s no substance. He felt Nolan-esque, and I mean that in that I felt like fancy dialogue and Very Self-Important Framing replaced actual theme, development or emotion.

Either don’t give him a backstory/motive, and let him be a terrifying unknowable power who likes killing, or give him a better backstory that comments on something real. There’s so much to say about the end of Titan- themes about environmentalism, or societal collapse, or even commentary on how overpopulation panic IRL is a completely racist scam that ignores that less than 1% causes most pollution and distribution of resources is the problem, not the number of people, but just... they do nothing with it.

“Titan ended because too many people; I said kill half, they said no.”

That’s not a commentary on anything. It’s way too vague. Everything looked fine in the flashback; what happened???? It’s incoherent. And it makes Thanos unsatisfying because all we get is “killing half good and I’m self-righteous and stubborn.”

[up][up] This also really bothered me. I thought they’d follow up/prove him wrong re: Gamora’s planet and Titan in Endgame and they never did.

Edited by wisewillow on Jun 11th 2019 at 11:49:42 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#103665: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:46:45 AM

[up][up][up] Oh my God its like reading the definition of insanity.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fighteer MOD Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103666: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:49:30 AM

Tobias, I'm normally respectful of your contributions, but this has gone too far. If you can't or won't see the fundamental flaws in your argument, I'm just going to prohibit it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#103667: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:49:55 AM

"A loaded gun will deal less damage than a bomb but it’s still irresponsible to leave one lying around."

Vormir is practically the opposite of lying around.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#103669: Jun 11th 2019 at 12:05:14 PM

Tobias, I'm normally respectful of your contributions, but this has gone too far. If you can't or won't see the fundamental flaws in your argument, I'm just going to prohibit it.

So it goes.

Regarding Jessica Jones: The first season was phenomenal, but I can't really recommend the second. It starts off pretty cool, but the latter half of the season goes in some really weird directions.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#103670: Jun 11th 2019 at 12:10:31 PM

I haven't actually watched any of the Netflix shows but from everything I've seen people say about them they seem so very... inconsistent. Like weirdly so.

This song needs more love.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#103671: Jun 11th 2019 at 12:48:49 PM

Here's the lowdown on the Netflix shows:

  • Daredevil Season 1 and 3 are great. Season 2's first-half is excellent, but putters out in the second half with what I call "the Hand is boring" problem.
  • Jessica Jones Season 1 is amazing, but Season 2 has issues. The more the season goes on, the more those issues crop up and you realize that Season 1 also had these issues, but the amazing performances by Krysten Ritter and David Tennant made up for them. Season 2 only has David Tennant for one episode and the villain of the season is...kind of bland, so the flaws are way more apparent.
  • Luke Cage Season 1 has a great first half, but an okay second half. There is a villain switch that...doesn't quite work. Season 2 handles things better and gets a lot more interesting, but is also one of the slowest seasons.
  • Iron Fist Season 1 has a lot of problems. A lot. Still, it's fun, especially the latter half (and especially Ward and his father). Season 2 is a 200% improvement, with better writing, better action, and better acting, plus an ending that almost nobody saw coming and really fixes what was a fundamental problem with Iron Fist. I love Iron Fist Season 2 so much and am super sad that it will probably never continue it's storyline.
  • The Defenders has an exciting first half and a boring second half.
  • I haven't finished The Punisher, but, from what I've heard, it's good, but its decidedly non-Punisher-like.

Edited by alliterator on Jun 11th 2019 at 12:50:03 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#103672: Jun 11th 2019 at 12:50:25 PM

And then there's The Defenders, which is a lot more shallow than the deep storylines and character beats of the respective shows, but does deliver what it promises, at least: crazy crossover action.

Edit: You [nja]-edited it in.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Jun 11th 2019 at 3:51:07 PM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#103673: Jun 11th 2019 at 12:51:32 PM

Yeah, The Defenders also falls into "the Hand is boring" problem, but amplified because there is no other villains. Well, okay, there's Elektra, but she's pretty much barely there.

Also, I am eternally sad that we will almost never get a Daughters of the Dragon spin-off. I want it sooo bad.

Edited by alliterator on Jun 11th 2019 at 12:52:26 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#103674: Jun 11th 2019 at 12:52:39 PM

And Sigourney Weaver plays an original villain in Defenders.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life

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