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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#103626: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:40:17 AM

Uggh again with the "movies never does anything to stop validating Thanos".

Yeeesh I thought we were well past that but I guess it had to come back.

[up] That is true.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 11th 2019 at 9:40:55 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#103627: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:44:01 AM

I just find it weird that someone could look at the scene where Natasha is talking to the remaining Avengers and is so determined to prevent anything bad from happening that she sent Rocket and Nebula to investigate a infected garbage scow and asked Okoye what they should do about an underwater tremor and think "Oh yes, there has been zero crime for five years." There clearly has been trouble, but Natasha and the rest have taken care of it.

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#103628: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:56:53 AM

I don't understand how anyone could have seen Endgame and and still think "the story doesn't scream into my face that Thanos is wrong, therefore Thanos is right."

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103629: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:59:10 AM

I too find irritating this constant insistence that films must browbeat us with the villain being morally wrong or else they are implicitly condoning them. I've said my peace on this before, and I've realized that it's pointless to debate a bad faith argument.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 11th 2019 at 1:00:02 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#103630: Jun 11th 2019 at 10:00:40 AM

[up]What is my ulterior motive?

EDIT: And comment changed.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 11th 2019 at 10:01:34 AM

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#103631: Jun 11th 2019 at 10:17:20 AM

You shouldn't NEED a big shiny reason to know that ultra genocide is wrong. That should be easy enough to figure out because you're a human being with empathy.

My various fanfics.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#103632: Jun 11th 2019 at 10:23:05 AM

I mean, not every human being has empathy.

But seriously, yeah, taking time to browbeat the audience with a sanctimonious diatribe about why the villain is wrong would just come across as hamfisted. Just let the audience suss things out for themselves.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#103633: Jun 11th 2019 at 10:59:36 AM

There are plenty of movies in the MCU that have done it perfectly fine, and haven’t been called too blunt for it.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 11th 2019 at 11:00:26 AM

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#103634: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:00:23 AM

In other news we should be getting Captain Marvel to watch at home on Blu-ray quite soon. Hype!

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#103635: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:09:39 AM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#103636: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:13:09 AM

Okay now your bringing Trump & Nazis into this.

This has gone too fucking far.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
SapphireBlue Since: Jan, 2001
#103637: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:16:39 AM

I kind of assumed that the Soul Stone's criteria is based on the mindset of whoever's doing the sacrifice. Regardless of how obviously twisted and abusive his relationship with Gamora is, he believes he loves her, and so it counts.

Edited by SapphireBlue on Jun 11th 2019 at 11:17:02 AM

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#103638: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:16:52 AM

Of course the movie shows that he's a bad person and a monster. He murders Loki, he murders a defenseless Heimdall, he murders so many Asgardians in literally the first second we see him. He was wildly abusive to Nebula, literally ripping her apart piece by piece because she "failed" him, and then called her "a waste of parts." He stole Gamora from her home and murdered her people, he lies and manipulates and murders and destroys everything he touches for his own personal gain, and nowhere is that more obvious than in Endgame. All Thanos wants is for everyone in the universe to tell him he's right, that he's so smart, that he's so much better and nobler than them. And when he finds out that the universe rejects him and his grand plan for the monstrosity that it is, he doesn't even spare a breath to assume that maybe he's in the wrong, his immediate reaction is "Oh, no, it's the universe that's wrong, I'll just murder everyone who ever lived and make a new one."

Gamora couldn't spell it out more plainly that what Thanos felt for her wasn't actually love if when she said the line "THIS ISN'T LOVE", she had turned to the camera and addressed every single person in the audience by name.

If you just open your eyeballs and look at the movie that's presented to you, it becomes painfully obvious that you don't need to sandwich in Steve or Tony or Strange going on a two-minute monologue about how genocide is bad and that people who commit it are bad.

My various fanfics.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#103639: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:18:40 AM

> He murders Loki,

an impressive feet considering how many times he faked his death

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#103640: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:21:43 AM

An omniscient rock that commands love or something said Gamora is wrong and then doubled down on that when the scenario happened again. According to the writers, it’s the Darkest Hour, because Thanos lost “his love” meaning the story says Gamora is wrong.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 11th 2019 at 11:23:28 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#103641: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:24:30 AM

An omniscient rock that commands love or something said Gamora is wrong and then doubled down on that when the scenario happened again. According to the writers, it’s the Darkest Hour, because Thanos lost “his love” meaning the story says Gamora is wrong.

Precisely. This is classic Show, Don't Tell. Gamora told us that Thanos didn't love her. But the Soul Gem showed us that he did. By the film's literal measuring stick, Thanos won the debate on whether his abusive possessiveness qualifies as real love.

You may recognize this as precisely the opposite way this should occur. Thanos can tell us that he loves Gamora all he wants, but the film should show us that what he considers love doesn't really count.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 11th 2019 at 12:25:34 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#103642: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:25:52 AM

Again: it was love, it just wasn't a healthy kind of love. That's clear from the way he treats her and Nebula. But the Soul Stone doesn't give a crap if the love is healthy or abusive; all it requires is "love" and "a soul for a soul." Again: the Soul Stone doesn't judge.

I think we're getting hung up now on semantics.

Thanos won the debate on whether his abusive possessiveness qualifies as real love.
What is "real love"? Love is an immaterial thing; it's not something that can definitely be quantified. Thanos certainly felt love for Gamora, even though it was an abusive, "I made you what you are" love; but again, the Soul Stone doesn't give a crap about what kind of love you sacrifice to it. All it cares about is, again "love" + "a soul."

Edited by alliterator on Jun 11th 2019 at 11:28:48 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#103643: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:28:04 AM

I don't see why Thanos holding love for Gamora has anything to do with whether his semicide plan is wrong or not.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#103644: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:28:13 AM

The Soul Stone is really lax about the whole thing as long as it gets its blood sacrifice.

" She killed herself instead of you killing her? Eh, whatever. I got my sip. Here's a me as a participation trophy."

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#103645: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:29:12 AM

[up] Black Widow really loved herself.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#103646: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:29:31 AM

And again, “Thanos is capable of a form of love and loss” and “Thanos was morally right all along” are two completely different things, and trying to Internet Lu connect them is a huge leap in logic that outright requires ignoring the context of the rest of the film and other characters in order to justify.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#103647: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:30:26 AM

You're right. This:

What is "real love"? Love is an immaterial thing; it's not something that can definitely be quantified. Thanos certainly felt love for Gamora, even though it was an abusive, "I made you what you are" love; but again, the Soul Stone doesn't give a crap about what kind of love you sacrifice to it.

is indeed a semantic argument. You're trying to explain away the verbage used by the film by making a philosophical question about the nature of love.

When what actually happens in the film is that Thanos says he loves Gamora, Gamora says he doesn't, and the Soul Gem then decrees that he truly does. That's it. End of story.

Now, a philosophical debate about the nature of love may be relevant if Endgame had used Vormir's return to call Gamora's sacrifice into question. Perhaps by suggesting that love isn't actually relevant to the sacrifice. Or by rewarding Hawkeye and Black Widow's actions in a way that Thanos, in his eagerness to sacrifice, missed out on.

But that never happens. And so the scene remains what it is. Thanos says he loves Gamora, Gamora says he doesn't, and the Soul Gem then decrees that he truly does. The end.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 11th 2019 at 12:32:33 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#103648: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:31:10 AM

There’s nowhere that the film indicates the problem is the Stone itself. Its word is treated as final. When Widow and Hawkeye realize Thanos must’ve earned it by killing Gamora, none of them find it unbelievable that he loved her. Bruce’s attempt to disobey it with the full Infinity Gauntlet doesn’t work. And Cap’s suggested to put the Stone back in its altar where it will demand killing again.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 11th 2019 at 11:32:20 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#103649: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:31:41 AM

[up][up] You're right. That's what happens. Gamora is wrong; Thanos does love her. That doesn't make him not an abusive prick or genocidal madman.

Being capable of love doesn't mean you aren't still an abusive, genocidal villain.

Edited by alliterator on Jun 11th 2019 at 11:33:28 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#103650: Jun 11th 2019 at 11:32:22 AM

> What is "real love"?

I found the answer!

evil grin

have a listen and have a link to my discord server

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