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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#103601: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:35:51 PM

I agree that the transition between “sad man noble duty” Thanos in Infinity War and “I demand everyone tell me I’m awesome” Thanos in Endgame is unconvincingly abrupt, but I never liked Thanos being played as sympathetic in Infinity War anyway so I’ll take the new Card-Carrying Villain version.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 10th 2019 at 11:36:46 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#103602: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:39:17 PM

Note that nothing we saw about Thanos leading up to Infinity War painted him as a sympathetic well-intentioned extremist.

The first sight of him in the entire MCU is grinning when one of his minions tells him that humans "court death".

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#103603: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:39:23 PM

Well, remember that it's not the same Thanos. The one from Endgame's, uh, endgame hasn't had five years to mull things over; he's still pretty fresh off the Avengers denying him the Tesseract in 2012, and hasn't gone through the loss of his daughters betraying him yet or being forced to sacrifice one of them for the Soul Stone.

That being said, I think they did a good job of making it feel like one continuous character; Past Thanos does his homework and picks up where his present self probably would have gone next, albeit more bloodthirsty and ill-tempered.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#103604: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:40:44 PM

Yeah the important thing to note is the Thanos who made the change was the one who hasn't gone through all the experiences in IW. They are both different people but also the same. Past-Thanos is more actively violent compared to Present-Thanos who has been rendered somber from pain and having nothing left in his life to do.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 10th 2019 at 11:41:44 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#103605: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:45:10 PM

Bear in mind that Infinity War Thanos said he was going to "finally rest and watch the sun rise on a grateful universe" after completing his goal.

He always thought that people would tell him he's awesome.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#103606: Jun 11th 2019 at 1:44:21 AM

The whole thing was more or less his personal quest for validation.

Disgusted, but not surprised
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#103607: Jun 11th 2019 at 1:45:20 AM

[up][up][up] I'm still not 100% on my feelings towards that aspect of the film.

Having Thanos be replaced by a version of himself without any character development sorta just highlights how margianalized he is in E Ndgame. He exists because the film needs a final battle. Even though the film kinda twists itself to make that happen. He's inevitable because the screenwriters demand he be inevitable. You could easily not have Thanos be involved in the plot at all. It's basically pure bad luck that he gets wise to what's going on.

Edited by GNinja on Jun 11th 2019 at 8:45:36 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#103608: Jun 11th 2019 at 2:14:34 AM

^ That's sort of my feelings towards the overall story of Endgame. Strange said after searching 14 million possible scenarios that this was the only option of success. Instead basically the entire climax hinges on complete random chance ( if Nebula pressed the return button one second earlier, or Rhodey pressed his one second later) otherwise it would have been an unspoiled victory. I do like the idea of a bleeding effect between these realities, which Far From Home might explore, but in terms of the movie itself it's just there to give us a third act.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#103609: Jun 11th 2019 at 6:47:32 AM

Note that nothing we saw about Thanos leading up to Infinity War painted him as a sympathetic well-intentioned extremist.

The first sight of him in the entire MCU is grinning when one of his minions tells him that humans "court death".

Yeah, but nothing we saw about Thanos leading up to Infinity War meant anything at all, so I can see why people don't take that into consideration. His appearances in Avengers 1, Guardians, and the Age of Ultron stinger have basically nothing to do with these films, which were more or less written in a vacuum.

That said, I agree with the general sentiment that Thanos was seeking validation for his horrible ideas on Titan, not being truly selfless. It's an easy thing to overlook, however, because that's one of many things Endgame fails to pay off.

Thanos asserts that Titan died because of a Malthusian catastrophe. This is his entire justification for his plan to kill half the universe, and the film uses the setting for one of its climaxes as well as the Reality Gem to show us the before and after of Titan's tragedy.

Endgame allows Thanos's claim to be the final word on the matter. It never offers rebuttal for his version of what happened to Titan. Thanos says, "My methods are horrifying but they are effective," and the heroes' position is "Yeah, but they're horrifying, though."

That's the biggest misstep with Thanos's character and it's what makes the transition between films so jarring. His position in IW is Utopia Justifies the Means. His position in Endgame is Dude, Where's My Respect?. And that can be an unexpected leap in his character for some because the only argument against Thanos's Utopia Justifies the Means philosophy that IW and Endgame offer is a superficial You're Insane!.

The film never disagrees that it would work; only that it's a cruel way of doing it. Rather, Infinity War spends so much time selling Thanos as a diehard true believer willing to do whatever it takes to save the universe, while stashing his egotistic "grateful universe" characterization in throwaway lines here and there.

Thanos makes the most sense as a character in denial about his own terrible ideas. Someone who utterly refuses to admit that his plan for Titan was garbage. Someone driven to vindicate himself, even if it means reducing the rest of the universe to the same burnt-out shell that Titan has become.

But that's not the character presented in the films.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 11th 2019 at 7:55:43 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#103610: Jun 11th 2019 at 7:40:36 AM

We saw clearly in Endgame that Thanos plan didn't work. Earth wasn't better off and no one could move on. And Thanos showed that for all of his grandstanding, he was ultimate an egomaniac who just wants validation for all the horrible things he had done.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#103611: Jun 11th 2019 at 8:12:15 AM

It’s shown to an extent in Endgame that halving Earth’s population wasn’t all beneficial. Five years later, major cities like NYC and San Francisco have massive unoccupied zones left to gather dust.

On the other hand, somehow Earth is more peaceful? No outbreak of war, no other supervillains, and the Avengers on Earth don’t really have much to do except monitor petty crime.

And on that same hand, that Titan and Gamora’s planet just needed to kill more people is left completely unchallenged.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 11th 2019 at 8:12:59 AM

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#103612: Jun 11th 2019 at 8:15:08 AM

Btw, I found it really funny that Thanos just straight up turned into Cyrus from Pokemon.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#103613: Jun 11th 2019 at 8:32:26 AM

No outbreak of war, no other supervillains, and the Avengers on Earth don’t really have much to do except monitor petty crime.
We don't know that, actually — in fact, we don't see them monitor "petty crime" at all. It's clear that things are bad throughout the galaxy — or else Carol wouldn't have been needed in all those planets — and crime is still there, even if it's more subdued. Hell, there's a reason that Clint is going after Mexican drug cartels and Yakuza. That's certainly not "petty crime."

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#103614: Jun 11th 2019 at 8:56:03 AM

[up][up]Ehh, not really. Thanos wanted to kill everyone and restart the universe with enough resources for enough people. Cyrus just wanted to remove all emotion from the world; based on his line in Platinum about the player "waking up" in a world of his creation, he didn't even intend to kill everybody off, just change the world they all live in.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#103615: Jun 11th 2019 at 8:59:49 AM

We don't know that, actually — in fact, we don't see them monitor "petty crime" at all. It's clear that things are bad throughout the galaxy — or else Carol wouldn't have been needed in all those planets — and crime is still there, even if it's more subdued. Hell, there's a reason that Clint is going after Mexican drug cartels and Yakuza. That's certainly not "petty crime."

That's actually not clear at all. Carol mentions that other planets don't have Avengers to help them, but that's basically the plot's excuse for her to f*ck off. It's never developed or expanded on beyond being an excuse to remove Carol from the events to come.

And even then, I guess she just hung out in low Earth orbit for an hour or something 'cause she shows right back up unprompted once the Avengers have completed all their time travel shenanigans. No one calls or signals her. She just manages to return in a timely fashion when she's needed.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 11th 2019 at 10:00:54 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#103616: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:01:36 AM

There's still the thing with the Yakuza and Mexican drug cartels though.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#103617: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:02:02 AM

It’s logical to assume that the other Avengers put out a call to her that they were doing a time heist and she swung by as soon as she was done doing whatever she was up to. Alternatively: she’s a living FTL engine. Who knows how fast she can book. What was the turnaround time of the beeper shutting down and her showing up in the Captain Marvel stinger

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#103618: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:05:51 AM

"That's Thanos, I think. He feels pride and attachment to the beings he groomed into devotees. But he "created" them for a purpose, and considers it just if the culmination of their existence is to die for that purpose. His love is an entirely onesided affair, because he does not conceive of relationships that don't end with his ideals being paramount.

"

Pretty much, Thannos love Gamora because gamora act the part he wanted and therefore the part he made of her, the moment she rebel like nebula, he could only find disaponitment.

He is yoru typical overbearing parent, just with a cosmic gauntlet on him

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#103619: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:06:47 AM

It’s not insignificant crime, but it is a far cry from how all life on Earth was nearly wiped out four times in the prior five years,note  with several World War 3s risked as well.note  Most of the Avengers have retired and the world didn’t suffer for it. Thanos saved the planet apparently.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 11th 2019 at 9:19:01 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#103620: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:16:38 AM

Pretty much, Thannos love Gamora because gamora act the part he wanted and therefore the part he made of her, the moment she rebel like nebula, he could only find disaponitment.

He is yoru typical overbearing parent, just with a cosmic gauntlet on him

Exactly.

Which is, itself, another area where the films wound up uncomfortably validating Thanos's behavior. When he sacrifices Gamora, we're meant to feel bad for him. Thanos asserts that he alone has the courage to make the necessary sacrifices, and the film wholeheartedly agrees.

Gamora insists that Thanos's abusive relationship with her isn't love, but that's just, like, her opinion, man. The supernatural arbiter of love and sacrifice declares that Thanos indeed loved Gamora, that his love was real love, and that it counts. This absolute declaration is never refuted by the rest of the film or Endgame.

Indeed, Endgame goes a step further by asserting that the love between Hawkeye and Black Widow is exactly equivalent to the love Thanos has for Gamora. An opportunity to undermine the Soul Gem's claim to being a supernatural arbiter of what is and is not love goes by unheeded. The Vormir Sacrifice is never subverted in a way that would devalue Thanos's initial sacrifice. Instead, the narrative rewards Black Widow's death in precisely the same way as Gamora's, vindicating Thanos's "love" in the process.

Infinity War and Endgame are bizarrely reluctant to actually condemn Thanos's actions. The writers know he's supposed to be the bad guy. But it doesn't feel like the writers actually understand why his actions are bad. The films seem to think that an abusive, genocidal madman is a complex, morally grey character with valid arguments to make.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 11th 2019 at 10:21:40 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#103621: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:22:15 AM

I’ve never seen that scene that way. Imo, that scene does a stronger job of making us feel bad for Gamora than for Thanos.

The fact that it feels entirely unfair that Thanos keeps getting his way and patting himself on the back for it is intentional. We’re supposed to feel outrage, not sympathy, that he can sacrifice and traumatize better people than himself and call it justice - which is why the movie puts so much attention on how his actions make the other characters feel.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#103622: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:30:29 AM

From the Infinity War DVD commentary:

McFeely: "The end of Act Two, for us, is always the darkest moment — usually on a character level, but it might be on a plot level. Sort of an easy look at it might be 'Oh, we lost Gamora, that's bad for the Avengers, that's bad for us as an audience member.' That's not why it's the end of Act Two. It's the end of Act Two because it's bad for Thanos, it's the worst thing to happen to Thanos. It's the one person he loved more than anything, it's the one thing that stands in the way of him getting what he wants."

The scene wants the audience to feel sorry for Thanos.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 11th 2019 at 9:31:50 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#103623: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:34:39 AM

To the exclusion of feeling that his actions are wrong? He doesn’t say that.

Feeling sorry for a character and feeling that they’re right are two very different things, especially in a film that does such a strong job of establishing the negative personal effects of his actions.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 11th 2019 at 9:36:13 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#103624: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:37:43 AM

Carol mentions that other planets don't have Avengers to help them, but that's basically the plot's excuse for her to f*ck off.
No, she says that in the beginning. After the five year timeskip, she says, "The things that are happening on Earth, are happening everywhere, on thousands of planets." And sure, it's an excuse for her not to be on Earth, but it's also the truth, because why would she lie?

It’s not insignificant crime, but it is a far cry from how all life on Earth was nearly wiped out four times in the prior five years
Except, again, we don't know exactly what's been going in, crime-wise, in the past five years. Hell, they could have prevented world-ending events and we wouldn't know about it because it's been five years and they aren't ones to say things like, "Hey, remember when we stopped that Nazi uprising last year?"

Thanos saved the planet apparently.
No, he absolutely did not.

Indeed, Endgame goes a step further by asserting that the love between Hawkeye and Black Widow is exactly equivalent to the love Thanos has for Gamora.
I think you are reading too much into it. To the Soul Stone, it doesn't matter what type of love someone feels, all it requires is "to sacrifice what you love, a soul for a soul." Hell, that could mean your puppy or your mother, even if you love both differently. The Soul Stone doesn't judge.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#103625: Jun 11th 2019 at 9:39:03 AM

Have we considered that the soul stone is a dick?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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