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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#103576: Jun 10th 2019 at 9:06:31 PM

I legit don't see what you see in Endgame Nebula. Her development from Vol. 2 to Endgame is fantastic imo. Looking forward to seeing what Vol. 3 can do with the current Nebula and the new status quo of the Guardians.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#103577: Jun 10th 2019 at 9:09:12 PM

Yeah, Stockholm Syndrome is a hell of a thing.

It probably helps that when Nebula did see Thanos die, it wasn't a moment of triumph or epic battle. It was just watching the execution of a half-dead old man. It probably also didn't help that his last words were the words she had wanted to hear from him for most of her life.

Edited by M84 on Jun 11th 2019 at 12:11:25 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#103578: Jun 10th 2019 at 9:15:26 PM

Hey, twisted as it was, OG Thanos did indeed love Gamora. And his apology to Nebula for his treatment in the moments before his execution do seem genuine. Which of course would have an effect on Nebula at that moment.

Don't forget, she also never really gets her personal revenge agains the old prune. Thor gets the kill (and it's just as hollow for him).

If her cybernetics were made of shoddy material, she'd probably shortcircuit at that moment from the confusing singals firing off in her brain.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#103579: Jun 10th 2019 at 9:17:26 PM

Lima Syndrome is also a hell of a thing.

Edited by M84 on Jun 11th 2019 at 12:17:39 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#103580: Jun 10th 2019 at 9:19:27 PM

A sitcom of the Thanos family would be a hell of a thing.

[up][up] Huh at least Thanos was nice or practical enough to give her quality cybernetics.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 10th 2019 at 9:20:40 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#103582: Jun 10th 2019 at 9:25:42 PM

When I think of how Thanos "loves" his children, I keep thinking of how the CW portrayed Eobard Thawne in The Flash.

In the show, Eobard claims a strong fondness for the people around him, because as a time traveler who took a sledgehammer to their histories he considers himself as having essentially created them. He's close to them, enjoys spending time with them, and feels pride at their actions, but also has little issue discarding them - even personally killing them outright - if they stand in the way of his objectives, because they're ultimately of lesser importance than himself.

He ultimately regards them more as prideful possessions than people. And is his mind, that's love. He tells one of the other characters he sees him as a son, in the same scene he stabs him through the chest.

That's Thanos, I think. He feels pride and attachment to the beings he groomed into devotees. But he "created" them for a purpose, and considers it just if the culmination of their existence is to die for that purpose. His love is an entirely onesided affair, because he does not conceive of relationships that don't end with his ideals being paramount.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#103583: Jun 10th 2019 at 9:29:18 PM

"People's emotions are complicated" doesn't really strike me as a strong narrative reason because Endgame doesn't point out the complication. Nebula doesn't remark on how she faltered at the moment that she thought would be her triumph. Nobody else finds it weird that she seems mournful about the man who carved her into pieces. It's just treated as who is, and in the case of her past self, who she always was.

When a story wants to indicate a character is contradictory, it's usually pointed out, such as it being frequently brought up in Guardians 2 how Rocket is abruptly pushing friends away. Setup, for payoff later.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#103584: Jun 10th 2019 at 9:54:51 PM

Nebula doesn't remark on how she faltered at the moment that she thought would be her triumph. Nobody else finds it weird that she seems mournful about the man who carved her into pieces. It's just treated as who is, and in the case of her past self, who she always was.
This is what is called "show, don't tell" and is generally considered good storytelling.

When a story wants to indicate a character is contradictory, it's usually pointed out, such as it being frequently brought up in Guardians 2 how Rocket is abruptly pushing friends away. Setup, for payoff later.
The same thing happens in Endgame, mind you, just a bit more subtly:
  1. The Setup: Thanos finally compliments Nebula right before he dies. Nebula mourns him, even though she wanted to see him dead.
  2. The Payoff: 2014 Thanos finally treats 2014 Nebula was some measure of respect, because he saw what happened in the future — and so even when 2023 Nebula tries to get 2014 Nebula to betray Thanos, she can't, forcing 2023 Nebula to kill 2014 Nebula.

2014 Nebula represents all of the twisted ways in which abused children still feel something (love, a need for validation, etc) for their abusers. She thinks she can't escape because that's what Thanos has driven into her. 2023 Nebula knows better.

2023 Nebula's need to protect her sister overrides any other instinct, though, and she kills her own past self, effectively killing the part of her that she hates.

Edited by alliterator on Jun 10th 2019 at 10:00:14 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#103585: Jun 10th 2019 at 10:03:49 PM

That's not "show don't tell". It's neither showing nor telling. Rocket snapping at Peter and Peter asking "what is your problem" is showing, in Guardians 2.

The same thing happens in Endgame, mind you, just a bit more subtly:

The issue that I'm pointing out is that it's inconsistent for Nebula's characterization across the multiple MCU films. In Endgame alone, it's consistent because the movie wants Nebula to be demure and submissive around Thanos, so throughout all of Endgame she's submissive. But in every movie prior, she is chomping at the bit at the idea of slaughtering Thanos. Nebula's arc is multi-film, which is why it's a problem that the reason for her personality shift isn't shown.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 10th 2019 at 10:05:00 AM

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#103586: Jun 10th 2019 at 10:13:36 PM

It is shown. In Infinity War, where her hatred led her to Thanos, who piled up even more torture on her and finally led to the death of the sister she finally forgave.

And now the revenge on Thanos means nothing. Gamora is dead, and Thanos won.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#103587: Jun 10th 2019 at 10:25:13 PM

That's not "show don't tell". It's neither showing nor telling.
Yes, it is indeed showing. You are talking exclusively aboout dialogue. Nebula's characterization in Endgame comes from a little dialogue ("I wasn't always like this"), but mainly through her actions (the way she looks after Thanos is killed, the way she panics after realizing Thanos is coming, the way she acts around her younger self). It's all done through her actions, rather than her saying "I'm feeling this and this and this."

The issue that I'm pointing out is that it's inconsistent for Nebula's characterization across the multiple MCU films.
No. It isn't. In GOTG Vol 1, she seemed loyal to Thanos until she told Ronan she would work for him if he killed her father. In GOTG Vol 2, she seemed to want revenge against Gamora, but it was only because of the abusive actions of Thanos and she eventually relented. Her issues with Thanos have always been complicated — she wants his approval, but she hates him for what he did to her. Still, even with that knowledge, she can't help but mourn him, like Gamora did.

In Endgame alone, it's consistent because the movie wants Nebula to be demure and submissive around Thanos, so throughout all of Endgame she's submissive. But in every movie prior, she is chomping at the bit at the idea of slaughtering Thanos.
Watch GOTG Vol 1 again — Nebula is definitely submissive while she's around Thanos, but immediately changes when she's away from him.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#103588: Jun 10th 2019 at 10:47:22 PM

It's actually my problem with Endgame. That and not really being a fan of the middle portion of it.

Thanos is really margianalized in it, which is frustrating considering he was perhaps the most interesting character in Infinity War. (for me anyway)

I guess I would've found it more interesting if some characters who'd survived the snap had been able to have an actual conversation with him. The "ungrateful masses" addendum that he makes to his motive is fitting, but I wish I'd seen him fall into that delusion. He kinda just says it before the final battle.

Kaze ni Nare!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#103589: Jun 10th 2019 at 10:49:08 PM

Watch GOTG Vol 1 again — Nebula is definitely submissive while she's around Thanos, but immediately changes when she's away from him.

That was the same scene where even Ronan was uneasy around Thanos, then changed his tune later once he wielded the strength of the Power Stone. Nebula's mood change in GOTG 1 wasn't due to being away from Thanos, but from seeing a genuine chance at defeating him through the sheer might of an Infinity Stone.

In GOTG Vol 2, she seemed to want revenge against Gamora, but it was only because of the abusive actions of Thanos and she eventually relented.

GOTG 2 is an example where the showing works because Nebula's relenting is made explicit. The shot holds on Nebula choking Gamora, readying her knife for the finishing blow, and just as Gamora's too passed out to fight back... Nebula lets go, then begins to admit what she really feels. Her two different stated motives of "I want to kill Gamora" and "I want Gamora to love me" are reconciled by this scene showing her transitioning between them.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 10th 2019 at 10:53:27 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#103590: Jun 10th 2019 at 10:52:50 PM

[up][up] Well his journey was already done by that point. He achieved what he wanted and payed the price for it. Nothing left to him & nothing left to say.

And it finally shows that in the end that for all his bluster he is nothing more than a unreasonable madman saying pretty words to justify mass-genocide.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 10th 2019 at 10:53:21 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#103591: Jun 10th 2019 at 10:58:33 PM

[up] But the pretty words clearly meant something to Thanos. Even if he's full of shit. He doesn't THINK he's full of shit. I certainly don't find it unbelievable that he would slip into just killing everyone because they didn't appreciate him enough, but I would've preferred some kind of transition into that.

Kaze ni Nare!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#103592: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:00:27 PM

Its not just that they didn't appreciate it enough.

Its the fact they actively sought to reverse it.

At that point dusting half of everything is pointless if people are gonna undo it again so killing everything and remaking it taking away people's final sense of agency is logical.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 10th 2019 at 11:01:16 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#103593: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:01:51 PM

Remember that at the end of the day, Thanos' real motivation was merely to prove to all of the ghosts of Titan that he was right. Thanos was ultimately a selfish egotist.

Edited by M84 on Jun 11th 2019 at 2:02:39 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#103594: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:04:36 PM

Nebula's mood change in GOTG 1 wasn't due to being away from Thanos, but from seeing a genuine chance at defeating him through the sheer might of an Infinity Stone.
It's both.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#103595: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:05:39 PM

[up][up][up] I'm not saying how it's done doesn't make sense. I'm saying I thought you could've made some compelling scenes out of him coming to that conclusion. And the film as it stands just has thanos as a body to fight at the end.

[up][up] To me there's a difference between someone's conscious motive, and someone's true inner motive. Thanos, in his heart of hearts, is self centered, crazy, egotistical and wants everyone to realize how amazing he is. But he truly thinks that he's helping people. That's the justification his brain has made to wallpaper over how he really feels.

Edited by GNinja on Jun 10th 2019 at 6:08:44 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#103596: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:07:58 PM

I guess we're well into spoiler territory then. I'm quite fine with Thanos being stripped of sympathetic qualities since I grew to be highly mixed on him in IW and this is back to being the Avengers' movie centering on how they handle this horrific tragedy they've experienced and have every right to be pissed at Thanos for.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#103597: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:10:42 PM

I guess this is just my fault for adoring IW because it actually gave me a villain I really cared about, and I've never been super invested in the Avengers.

Kaze ni Nare!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#103598: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:14:05 PM

What IW Thanos was great & Endgame Thanos great.

He is one of the finest antagonists to ever grace cinema.

He did win and even if it was reversed he attained the ultimate victory in that he will forever be remembered. His reach extends to the entire universe and no one will forget the Mad Titan and the atrocities he committed.

He is Inevitable........ and Darkseid IS. tongue

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 10th 2019 at 11:15:06 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#103599: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:16:30 PM

I sorta feel you, was always more of a Guardians boy myself and Ragnarok was the first movie starring one of the original six that I really grew to love.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#103600: Jun 10th 2019 at 11:27:21 PM

For a villain guy like me, Infinity War was like being thrown a bone. But if the bone was a giant moon made entirely of bones. I was thrown a planetoid full of bones in Infinity War and it made me so happy. XD

It's why Endgame, while I liked it and the final act is amazing, didn't completely do it for me. I guess I was spoiled.

Edited by GNinja on Jun 10th 2019 at 6:28:09 PM

Kaze ni Nare!

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