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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102626: May 17th 2019 at 11:36:47 PM

(sigh) Sorry.

To be specific about what I was saying about Dr Strange. My fear was more coming from his title as Sorceror Supreme. Him being established as knowing all magic and being a master of all magic seems REALLY powerful. So I worry that a story would need to do some contriving or have Strange conveniently forget certain things he can do.

Edited by GNinja on May 17th 2019 at 6:37:06 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#102627: May 17th 2019 at 11:38:20 PM

Is Strange the Sorcerer Supreme now?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#102628: May 17th 2019 at 11:39:53 PM

I'm guessing most villains got snapped so they can put their plans on hold for whenever.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102629: May 17th 2019 at 11:40:12 PM

[up][up] It kinda seemed that way in Infinity War in the fight against Thanos. The stuff he was doing seemed well above what most other sorcerors were doing in the first Dr Strange film.

Edited by GNinja on May 17th 2019 at 6:40:40 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#102630: May 17th 2019 at 11:40:55 PM

Strange is interesting, in that he's generally built on the idea that brute force lacks impact vs intellect: most of his major enemies are several orders of magnitude more powerful than he is when it comes to strictly magical force vs magical force, so Strange typically beats them with magical finesse.

There's a lot you can do with magic, as long as the rules are internally consistent, so the best writers for him stretch their imaginations while keeping it all in a way that still makes reasonable sense.

Him beating Dormammu in the MCU, for example, by exploiting a form of magic and a concept of reality Dormammu has no understanding for to gain an advantage, is a pretty classic Dr. Strange way of fighting a bad guy.

He does get a buff in Infinity War, but at the same time I felt like the first Dr. Strange movie did a shit job of presenting the abilities of a society of wizards in the first place.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 17th 2019 at 11:43:19 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102631: May 17th 2019 at 11:43:01 PM

I... actually really didn't like the defeat of Dormamu. I thought it made him look like a joke.

I'm not saying I know what they should've done. But it really hurt my enjoyment of the climax.

Kaze ni Nare!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#102632: May 17th 2019 at 11:43:32 PM

My fear was more coming from his title as Sorceror Supreme
As already pointed out, he isn't Sorcerer Supreme yet in the MCU. And in the comics, he's been Sorcerer Supreme for decades (barring incidents when he quit/was fired/lost his magic) and the writers have always found enemies for him to fight/problems for him to solve.

Here, I'll give you a list:

  1. Nightmare
  2. Shuma Gorath
  3. Chthon
  4. Umar
  5. The Dweller-in-Darkness
  6. Mephisto
  7. The Empirikul
  8. Mister Misery

If you truly aren't happy with anything in the MCU, then...perhaps the MCU isn't for you?

Edited by alliterator on May 17th 2019 at 11:44:40 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#102633: May 17th 2019 at 11:44:01 PM

It should be noted that the main antagonist of Dr Strange 2 is gonna be Nightmare a God of a nightmare realm.

That's not something you can brute force.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#102634: May 17th 2019 at 11:44:49 PM

I really, really, really want Shuma in the MCU. A full on Cosmic Horror would be such an untapped genre for an otherwise mainline superhero film.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#102635: May 17th 2019 at 11:44:55 PM

[up][up]Punch sleep in the face!

[up] I just love Shuma-Gorath's Badass Boast: "Before all was, I was. Before time was, I waited. I fed on the screaming souls of the universes. I drank the spoiled milk of dead stars. I am the emptiness outside all understanding. I am Shuma-Gorath."

Edited by alliterator on May 17th 2019 at 11:45:50 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102636: May 17th 2019 at 11:47:21 PM

[up][up][up][up] I like plenty of things in the MCU. They just tend to be tempered by things I don't like.

Like, I think the reason I keep instinctively sidestepping all those entities you're describing is because I worry they'd just be monsters. That they wouldn't be written as interesting characters. Plus a lot of them sound darkness related.

Edited by GNinja on May 17th 2019 at 6:49:10 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#102637: May 17th 2019 at 11:50:27 PM

There's a risk of that. The MCU did sometimes drop the ball with adapting antagonists as interesting in earlier titles, my absolute least favorite being when they screwed up Kurse in Thor 2 and turned what could have been an interesting character arc (which probably would have helped save the movie, imo) into a generic brute.

But they've been somewhat better about it recently. Ego's one of the most powerful antagonists the franchise has ever had, and he was fantastic.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#102638: May 17th 2019 at 11:57:15 PM

Yeah, for all of the MCU's "villain problem," Phase 3 has had some of the best villains (Zemo, the Vulture, Ghost, Thanos).

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#102639: May 17th 2019 at 11:59:31 PM

A little bit late but: Powerlevels are stupid. Because it is always the writer who decides anyway.

[up] Marvel's so called villain problem was always overstated anyway.

Edited by Swanpride on May 17th 2019 at 11:59:57 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102640: May 17th 2019 at 11:59:44 PM

Yeah, Phase 3 was on the whole a lot better. I wasn't quite as high on some of the more beloved ones (I couldn't really get into Zemo or Killmonger) but they were a damn sight better than Malekith or Ronan.

Kaze ni Nare!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#102641: May 18th 2019 at 12:04:10 AM

I liked Ronan. He was the perfect villain for the movie in question. Plus, he bathes in the blood of his enemy and then wears it as make-up. That is so badass!

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102642: May 18th 2019 at 12:13:21 AM

I think Marvel does have a villain problem, but it mostly comes from not giving the villains enough scenes I think. Kaecilius, Cross, Hela. I would've liked all of them a LOT more than I already do if they were given a bit more screen time.

Kaze ni Nare!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#102643: May 18th 2019 at 2:17:57 AM

There are rough power levels in the MCU, strictly in terms of physical strength. Black Widow is stronger than a normal human because of her training, but Captain America and Black Panther are stronger than her because they're super-soldiers. Spider-Man and Iron Man are stronger than Captain America. Thor and Hulk are stronger than Iron Man.

There are also a bunch of exceptions. Scarlet Witch is a great character to compare to Dr. Strange. Both of them fit the Squishy Wizard trope, with the physical strength of a normal human but absurdly strong telekinetic or magic attacks to compensate. If either is caught off-guard or hit by something while they're concentrating on something else, they can be taken out easily.

Dr. Strange, in the comics, tends to be the strongest human sorcerer, but his main villains tend to be beings beyond the purview of human perception. He fights gods, demons, and eldritch beings from other dimensions, and they tend to be even stronger than he is, requiring him to use his wits and tactics to outmaneuver or trick them. The ending of Dr. Strange, where he uses the Time Stone to trap Dormammu in a time loop and won't let him go until Dormammu agrees to stay away from the Earth, is a classic Dr. Strange-style victory, and is the kind of thing you should expect from Dr. Strange going forward.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on May 18th 2019 at 2:18:17 AM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#102644: May 18th 2019 at 6:30:30 AM

The thing about sorcerers is that they deal with enemies that really can’t be quantified in normal terms. That’s why he had to outsmart Dormmamu rather than beat him with physical force. I like that. It’s a different kind of fight.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#102645: May 18th 2019 at 10:57:44 AM

> It should be noted that the main antagonist of Dr Strange 2 is gonna be Nightmare a God of a nightmare realm.

oh no he's going to fight Bill Cipher!

would love that in a Death Battle

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#102646: May 18th 2019 at 11:06:03 AM

The problem with the many villains is that they are often treated as simple obstacles and not as characters.

Loki was not popular just for being handsome and intelligent, we also saw his development, which motivates him to be evil, and we can even feel sympathy for him.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#102647: May 18th 2019 at 11:27:10 AM

Sure, but not every villain has to be that. They can simply look cool and be threatening, too. Depends on the story you want to tell.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#102648: May 18th 2019 at 11:30:43 AM

If you want your villain to just look cool and be threatening, you have to do it right, otherwise it's going to come off flat. And then you get stuff like Thor 2.

To elaborate: a story is only as good as its primary antagonistic forces, which drive the plot. If your "villain" is only there to look cool and be threatening, then they are not - in fact - one of those primary antagonistic forces, so something else has to fill that role instead.

That antagonistic force doesn't have to be the villain. It doesn't even have to be a person. It could be an idea, or nature, or the hero themselves. But you have to have a clear, strong idea of what it is.

The problem is, because these movies tend to have a very typical structure, writers and directors get complacent and try to have their cake and eat it to: they want these stories to be hero focused first and foremost, but then also want the supervillains to be the biggest, most personally driving antagonists in their heroes' lives. And in trying to clumsily juggle both, you get stuff like the Iron Man sequels.

The only MCU movie that really succeeds in having “the villain” not be that primary antagonistic force is Civil War: Zemo’s there causing events to happen, yes, but the primary conflict is against Steve and Tony’s inability to compromise. It’s a sign the Russos knew what they were doing. Another good but non-MCU one in recent memory is Deadpool 2, and you could argue Shazam is an example as well.

This is also, on a related note, why some movies fail at having multiple villains: when the want every one of them to be the biggest, most prominent antagonist, and obviously they can’t all be. Whereas succeeding at multiple villains involves keeping those villains’ roles in the plot straight.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 18th 2019 at 11:58:49 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#102649: May 18th 2019 at 11:59:50 AM

Well, mostly worked in Ragnarök. Hela is flat as f... but next to nobody cared because she has a really cool look and is played by an actress who can pull awesome off.

Also, Heath Ledger's Joker is an example for this. And naturally the majority of Disney's villain line-up.

But I think the MCU does it right by usually putting the focus on the hero first and then doing a more layered villain in a later movie.

Edited by Swanpride on May 18th 2019 at 12:00:49 PM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#102650: May 18th 2019 at 12:13:36 PM

Iron Man 2 is the film that comes to mind in regards to not properly understanding how to balance the conflict properly.

Vanko gets some scenes early in the film that show him as having potential to be a good villain, but on the whole the film is much more about Tony's self-destruction, so he just feels superfluous and like he's there because of a genre obligation.


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