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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#102601: May 17th 2019 at 10:48:43 PM

Who would win Goku or Captain Marvel? tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#102603: May 17th 2019 at 10:50:29 PM

The main reason power levels become a problem is when a writer lets power levels write the plot/characters vs the power levels serving the plot/characters. They're ultimately just a plot device, not a plot element: a writer should absolutely not be letting a conceptual device like power levels control the story (to the contrary, it's on them to implement the device to fit the story, rather than the story to fit the device), and universes that do give it unusual levels of prominence need to be very rigidly controlled to keep that from causing issues.

To go back to Dragonball, power levels as a concept work as significantly as they do for that series primarily because the series doesn't just escalate, but uses escalation as a central, predominant aspect to the narrative. The fact that falling behind will put you below a certain power echelon works for that series because the story of Son Goku is all about how there will always be a new level that will make you irrelevant unless you push through it.

Without that sort of underlying theme, power levels lose significance and ultimately just get in the way. Loads of series on both sides of the pond play fast and loose with power levels because they're superfluous. Even the current direction of Dragonball uses power levels as guidelines rather than rules more than its predecessors, in favor of telling the stories they want to tell.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 17th 2019 at 10:55:32 AM

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102605: May 17th 2019 at 10:53:50 PM

@Gaon I think that's where my divergance comes from. Because I've never thought of power levels like that.

To me, power levels aren't about establishing a strict unbreakable heirarchy for the purposes of having ONLY people of a certain strata fight other people on that same strata. It's about establishing a rough heirarchy that can be used in a multitude of ways. Including having someone from outside their strata being useful because of circumstances.

Eneru in One Piece is hideously powerful. Luffy happening to have a power that completely counters Eneru's does not make Eneru less powerful. It just creates a blind spot. Part of the punch of Luffy being immune comes from Eneru legit being ungodly strong. He's not a complete fraud.

Having certain characters being stronger than others 9 times out of 10 is not a bad thing in my opinion. I think it's important for the sake of dynamism.

Edited by GNinja on May 17th 2019 at 5:54:59 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#102606: May 17th 2019 at 10:55:33 PM

[up][up] R.I.P. Stan we miss ya.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#102607: May 17th 2019 at 10:57:38 PM

[up][up] The downside is that approach emphasizes Eigen Plot and Kryptonite Factor, tropes which are rather reviled for their ubiquity and tendency to be the result of complacent writing. The key to avoiding them is to not write characters as "they're so strong nothing can face them unless..." and "they're so weak they can't contribute unless..." in the first place, regardless of how powerful (or not) they are. Doing so is a choice.

Hell, they started writing Superman like that forever ago in comic book terms and writers today still sometimes have trouble writing around it. When a character or a story has to run in perpetuity without an end in sight, it helps to have a general idea but be loose and open to wiggle room and variety when it comes to things like that.

[up][up][up] Gotta love him. It may be blunt and coarse, in true Stan fashion, but it's still true to this day.

Strict adherence to power level is something better suited for things like Death Battle, which analyze rather than write stories. But once a narrative enters the picture, the needs for things like that to be paramount lessens.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 17th 2019 at 11:05:01 AM

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#102608: May 17th 2019 at 11:01:54 PM

So, what do you think was going on with the villains during the Snapocalypse?

Edited by Nightwire on May 17th 2019 at 11:15:28 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102609: May 17th 2019 at 11:06:44 PM

[up][up] But I've found that an opposite problem occurs if you go the other route, and make a setting where anyone can beat anyone else.

It makes it harder for me to fully invest in the stakes of a story. When a story is just about the characters and the only thing at risk are those characters, then I have no problem. But comics and anime and pulp novels. They don't just do that. They include world ending threats and large scale conceptual stuff. But in a setting like the one I described, I find myself hard pressed to truly buy into a specific threat. Because no one is truly ABOVE anyone else.

When characters say "You can't fight him, he's too strong. Your death is all but certain" or things to that effect. I think on some level I SHOULD beleive it. At least when I'm suspending my disbelief. Because it makes the hero proving that statement wrong mean more.

Edited by GNinja on May 17th 2019 at 6:08:29 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#102610: May 17th 2019 at 11:11:52 PM

I mean, the idea that anyone can beat anyone else in a superhero comic is an oversimplification, and it's not what Stan actually means when he says "whoever the script writer wants to win." The idea isn't that anyone can jump in an win the day because reasons, but that success and failure isn't based strictly on who's stronger, but on how the story flows and is built.

I can't think of many crisis crossovers, at least, not well received ones, where the threat strength is false se anyone could step up to defeat them in any way - like I said, it's an oversimplification. There's a world of difference between nobody being stronger than anyone else and a power level system where characters are cut off from their narrative weight by those differences in strength. And adhering to the latter is just going to hurt the story in the long run, unless it takes over the story itself.

TBH, if you're reading a story and you're not invested in the characters' success, then the issue is more likely than than not that the story has simply failed to give you an adequate attachment to the characters.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 17th 2019 at 11:14:45 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#102611: May 17th 2019 at 11:15:16 PM

Eneru is a questionable example, for what its worth, because Eiichiro Oda has talked about how his supposedly ridiculous power level wouldn't be worth jack shit in the Grand Line because he relies entirely on brute force and people in the GL are way smarter than that. And that's where OP's approach really shines in that the whole logic is that you can't go "if A beat B and B beat C, A is stronger than C" because we have no idea how A and C's powersets and strategies would clash. Luffy managed to beat Crocodile basically on blind luck, Crocodile's arrogance and some fairly solid tactics, but Crocodile is still able to throw down with characters Luffy is clearly inferior to (like Mihawk and Akainu). Basically, power levels don't exist. You can have a vague idea of how things would go, but it's nigh-impossible to establish a hierarchy of power levels in One Piece because its all down to how well one can exploit the other's weaknessess.

But I'm straying off-topic so I'll stop here.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#102612: May 17th 2019 at 11:15:59 PM

Back to topic: Again, what do you think was going on with the villains during the Snapocalypse?

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102613: May 17th 2019 at 11:20:16 PM

[up][up] Unless you're Whitebeard.

When it requires a crew mate to betray you, you being very VERY old and past your prime, you intentionally holding back so as to not destroy the island you're standing on, being hit by hundreds of bullets, fighting someone who's power literally turns off other powers, being ganged up on by a crew of the most dangerous criminals in the world, and all of that was 100% needed to defeat you. Then I find it very hard to buy that power levels are worthless.

Edited by GNinja on May 17th 2019 at 6:20:43 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#102614: May 17th 2019 at 11:23:43 PM

I mean, none of that's the result of power levels, it's the result of narrative - specifically, the narrative then developing a story such that no matter how high the character's power level actually is, it doesn't keep them from their ultimate defeat by weaker characters.

And even from that, you can tell the writer needed to stray from story beats and think up a few weasels to get it to work (I spied the ever wonderful "the character wasn't actually fighting at their full power," for one).

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 17th 2019 at 11:26:19 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102615: May 17th 2019 at 11:25:53 PM

[up] To bring it all back to my personal neurosis. All I really want is to believe it when a story tells me that a villain is formidable.

Kaze ni Nare!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#102616: May 17th 2019 at 11:27:09 PM

There's no reason a story without rigid adherence to power levels can't do that for you. As I said, there's a world of difference between not letting power levels get in the way of the story (which, as I noted, your example is an example of) and "nobody is stronger than anyone else."

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 17th 2019 at 11:28:17 AM

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#102617: May 17th 2019 at 11:29:18 PM

Can we talk about something else?

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102618: May 17th 2019 at 11:30:02 PM

[up][up] Honest question, am I not explaining myself properly? I'm kinda getting a bit flustered because it feels like I'm saying something but people aren't getting me.

I said I don't WANT rigid adherance to power levels. I just don't want the concept of power levels to be 100% nonexistant. To me, power levels are best served as a rough heirarchy. That's how I've always thought of them.

Edited by GNinja on May 17th 2019 at 6:30:20 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#102619: May 17th 2019 at 11:31:13 PM

I just don't want the concept of power levels to be 100% nonexistant.

Not a single person said they should be. And to be fair, this whole thing did start via your wanting Dr. Strange's power scaling to be more rigid.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 17th 2019 at 11:33:49 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102620: May 17th 2019 at 11:32:06 PM

[up] That's the sentiment I get when people call power levels "meaningless"

Kaze ni Nare!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102622: May 17th 2019 at 11:35:01 PM

[up] Nightwire on the last page literally said "power levels mean jackshit in the MCU"

Kaze ni Nare!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#102623: May 17th 2019 at 11:36:00 PM

Which he then clarified as:

What I'm saying is: Stop obsessing over characters' Power Levels (tm).

A sentiment which is probably best addressed in Stan Lee's video above.

Though taking it as "the MCU is a world where no character is stronger than another" is pretty wildly out of context even though that clarification, though. It's more a statment on how power levels shouldn't be overtly prominent than whether they should outright exist or not.

As I said, they're a plot device. They're always going to exist.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 17th 2019 at 11:37:51 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#102624: May 17th 2019 at 11:36:04 PM

Well the proper term is "Power levels are bullshit." tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#102625: May 17th 2019 at 11:36:31 PM

Fuck power levels. There, I said it.


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