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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#102576: May 17th 2019 at 9:13:02 PM

Well I think the point was to put an overarching villain to connect all the shows.

Though yeah that doesn't meant they can't be overused.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#102577: May 17th 2019 at 9:14:55 PM

They clearly wanted the Hand to be the whole Myth Arc of the Netflix shows that would bring those various characters together. The problem was they took the gamble that audiences would be invested after the Hand was heavily featured in DD season 2, when pretty much the exact opposite occurred; the near universal consensus being that season 2 started off strong with the Punisher arc, and then proceeded to take a sharp nosedive after the Hand showed up.

It'd be a bit like if the Dark Elves had been used as the major recurring baddies of the movies after Thor 2.tongue

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#102578: May 17th 2019 at 9:24:36 PM

It always surprises me that neither the marvel movies nor the netflix shows have gone for the more obvious approach of having a Villain Team-Up to justify the heroes coming together. In the case of the Netflix shows I think the best route would have been teaming up the antagonists like, say, Kingpin and Mariah deciding to forge a partnership and take over the entirety of NY's work underground with the help of Simpson and Davos as their muscle. But of course, everyone having their own agenda and plotting against one another to varying extents.

This is a particular no-brainer because the Netflix shows had always taken great pride in their villains, so a show dedicated to these multi-layered bad guys cooperating and plotting against one another while still trying to fight the Defenders sounds like exactly their gameplan.

One of the problems is that all four shows follow more or less different vibes to varying extents, so when they came together to fight random eldritch ninja they often felt out of their element (the most glaring example being Luke Cage always insisting on dealing with the Hand like they're a complex societal woe rather than just eldritch ninjas because his series is dedicated to him fighting complex societal woes). The villain team-up would help to maintain each of the character's niches more functional.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#102579: May 17th 2019 at 9:37:57 PM

The problem is they didn't really put a lot of effort into making the Hand compelling antagonists. It actually gets pretty racist because all the white villains in Daredevil like Punisher, Fisk, and even the russian sex traffickers in season 1 (to a lesser extent) are full of pathos and have complex, believable psychologies that make them compelling in some way, but the Hand is just a faceless yellow peril mob.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102580: May 17th 2019 at 9:39:12 PM

It's really sad that the villains stagnated SO badly in the Netflix shows. Cuz they started off with Kingpin (and people like Owlsley) and Killgrave. Who were arguably the best parts of their respective seasons in totality.

I know people like Cottonmouth but I could never get into him (it wasn't his performance, I just couldn't take a single thing he did seriously because he was WORTHLESS as a threat). and I liked Diamondback more than others, but it was still a marked step down. The Hand were awful, and I didn't want ANOTHER "You but evil" villain, which we got with Jessica's mom.

Kaze ni Nare!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#102581: May 17th 2019 at 10:01:03 PM

Bushmaster fucking ruled, though.

And God, his accent was sexy.

My various fanfics.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102584: May 17th 2019 at 10:11:08 PM

Also, I know this is me being ME again, but can I just say that Dr Strange's sheer power level and status ALSO confuses the hell out of me.

Like, when your hero is THE SORCEROR SUPREME, who knows all magic and is this ridiculous prodigy, then what the hell kind of villain sorcerors can stand against him?

Kaze ni Nare!
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#102585: May 17th 2019 at 10:15:49 PM

Demons, extra-dimensional beings, evil sorcerers that contract with the above two that Stephen won't do because the price is too great or immoral, people with powerful mystical artefacts and etc. Ebony Maw did pretty well against him, and unlike anime, power levels don't mean jack here. Weaker opponents can take him by surprise and he can't no sell everything because they're low tier or something.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#102586: May 17th 2019 at 10:16:02 PM

Literal nightmare Gods, ancient sorcerers, sorcerers who use black/forbidden magic, demons, Dimension Lords, etc. [nja]

[up] Thank God this isn't fucking Dragon Ball or shonen in general.

Edited by slimcoder on May 17th 2019 at 10:16:30 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102587: May 17th 2019 at 10:18:58 PM

[up][up] People are always so quick to throw anime under the bus.

I've literally never seen an anime (even shonen anime) that hasn't subverted the idea of power levels at least once.

Edited by GNinja on May 17th 2019 at 5:19:16 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#102588: May 17th 2019 at 10:21:11 PM

To my best knowledge, Strange also goes up against powerful mystical beings and demon gods from other dimensions. A lot of times, these sorcerers invoke the powers of these beings, or serve under them.

Will Mordo be the main villain in the Doctor Strange sequel? I'm not sure, unless he tries to invoke something that will cripple all magic users in a single blow. Maybe he'll serve as The Heavy while another threat plagues the Earth. I can see them using Nightmare, Shuma-Gorath, or even Mephisto as villains, since they're probably the most well-known of Strange's foes outside of Mordo & Dormammu. Maybe they can bring in Umar, although they might have to play around with the fact she's Dormammu's sister.

Edited by chasemaddigan on May 17th 2019 at 1:22:02 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#102589: May 17th 2019 at 10:22:09 PM

[up][up] They try to subvert it but they still end up on playing it straight anyway.

How else did we end up with the living proof of creative cancer that is Jiren?

Edited by slimcoder on May 17th 2019 at 10:25:40 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102590: May 17th 2019 at 10:27:25 PM

[up] That's escalation, which happens in comics too. Thor went off and got a god killer axe. Peter got the Iron Spider. Tony has nano suits. You have Captain M Arvel's very existence.

It's just in my experience everyone thinks the thing THEY like isn't cliche'd garbage, but think that everything else is.

three examples of the power level subversion thing from DBZ off the top of my head: Captain Ginyu couldn't use the strength in Goku's body, even after possessing it. Trunks couldn't beat Cell despite being stronger, beause his muscles got so unwieldly big that Cell could outspeed him and dodge everything. Kid Buu is technically weaker than Super Buu, but he's more dangerous because he's completely insane and unpredictable.

Edited by GNinja on May 17th 2019 at 5:29:58 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#102591: May 17th 2019 at 10:28:50 PM

Strange is also not Sorcerer Supreme yet in the films, he's just a regular Master of The Mystic Arts, as he observes to Thanos.

Even in the comics, as obscenely powerful he is, he's still just a human sorcerer tangling with eldritch inter-dimensional forces. And something the comics often drive a hammer at, is that magic is a tricky business and Strange is still just a human channeling inhuman powers through his human body. The recent Jason Aaron run has spent pretty much its entire run talking about how this job takes a ridiculous physical and mental toll on whoever does it and the Sorcerer Supreme is always at the risk of snapping like a twig if put under too much pressure.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#102592: May 17th 2019 at 10:28:58 PM

[up][up] To be fair, none of those things are part of a singular progression with each other (even when, to note, you're talking about the movies, rather than the comics).

And I'd also argue that the problem with Jiren isn't something that can be summed us as simply escalation. If it were, the issues with his design and characterization would be shared by antagonists earlier in the Dragon Ball series, which by and large they're not. But that's getting off topic.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 17th 2019 at 10:32:36 AM

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#102593: May 17th 2019 at 10:34:12 PM

Just where is Mordo during the whole Thanos debacle anyway? Was he dusted too?

Actually, I'd be interested to know what happened to all the villains during the Snappening.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#102594: May 17th 2019 at 10:36:51 PM

Really we need a databook with a listing of every MCU character that says exactly who was Snapped.

Edited by LordVatek on May 17th 2019 at 1:37:16 PM

This song needs more love.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#102595: May 17th 2019 at 10:37:27 PM

Given that Mordo was my favorite character from that film I'm a little disappointed that in Endgame he didn't show up fighting alongside the Ancient One in New York.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102596: May 17th 2019 at 10:38:03 PM

I think it's just my unpopular opinion that I honestly DO like power levels. I think they're important.

Even if your intent is to subvert the power level system, that requires creating and establishing power levels to be subverted.

In general I really dislike it when people talk about "power levels" like it's a dirty word. Maybe I use the term in a different sense to most people or something.

Edited by GNinja on May 17th 2019 at 5:40:09 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#102597: May 17th 2019 at 10:39:37 PM

Regardless, "power levels" mean jackshit in the MCU.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#102598: May 17th 2019 at 10:42:17 PM

[up] I'm not quite sure I buy that.

the MCU is not unique in having characters weaker than their oppnents managing to defeat them, nor do I think that that trope in general invalidates the concept of power levels.

Edited by GNinja on May 17th 2019 at 5:43:01 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#102599: May 17th 2019 at 10:45:01 PM

Power levels are a dirty word more in the sense of literally ranking characters in terms of a rigidly established power hierarchy. One Piece naturally chucks the entire concept through the window and is all the better for it: fights are more defined by well-suited fighting styles, abilities and circumstances than some ill-defined concept of power levels (e.g Crocodile, a fairly early villain, is able to fight toe-to-toe with some of the strongest in the setting because the MC beating him relied a lot on circumstantial advantages. Joke scrub-tier villain Buggy the Clown turns out to be a bizarrely tough costumer to some of the heaviest hitters in the saga due his powers making him immune to slashing cuts). That makes fights way more engaging than defining a power level structure.

Edited by Gaon on May 17th 2019 at 10:46:43 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#102600: May 17th 2019 at 10:47:33 PM

What I'm saying is: Stop obsessing over characters' Power Levels (tm). No one is interested in that.


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