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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
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Yeah, Infinity War and Endgame are both masterpieces of storytelling first and foremost, the awesome moments are just the toppings. Also, you meant Nebula.
Whoops. Fixed.
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Both Infinity War and Endgame handle the assortment of characters differently. IW assumes that you know them already, and so doesn't spend much time developing them, focusing instead on developing the villain. It also splits up the characters into groups so that each can get some dedicated time, rather than mashing them all together.
Endgame returns the focus to the original group. There are only ten heroes who spend time in the spotlight (until the end, obviously), and each gets their own arc, with particular focus on the original six Avengers (and Nebula). To say that nothing changes or moves for them is a blatant lie that makes me wonder if you even watched the same movie. Endgame is specifically and deliberately about concluding the arcs of the OG six, leaving them in a place of completion.
Edited by Fighteer on May 16th 2019 at 12:53:32 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Tough to do without spoilers, but I'm curious about those arguments, since I've heard most of them along with the counterarguments. I would also point out that you aren't going to get much mileage arguing about plot holes in Endgame by way of judging its quality, but ignoring the loads of them in the other MCU films.
Edited by Fighteer on May 16th 2019 at 12:55:14 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"This. I've heard an argument that they should have gone back to steal extra Pym Particles first so they wouldn't be limited in how many jumps they could make. Obviously, this is true, but it's not a plot hole, it's just like any other case of "why did the characters do X and not Y?" The answer is: to make the story happen.
Now, it's definitely Fridge Logic, but within the context of the film it isn't even suggested that the characters could do that (get extra Pym Particles) until the plot needs it to happen, because they are going for the shortest and simplest heist possible. Also, and this is crucial, it doesn't change the actual things they are trying to accomplish. They still have to get the Infinity Stones from the past.
So, if the argument is that the plot isn't perfectly logical/thought out because the movie wants to take us on a sightseeing tour through the previous films... so? When has consistency ever taken precedence over storytelling in any superhero film? When did we get so jaded that we fight over it?
Heck, in Superman: The Movie, Clark flies around the world so fast that it reverses its spin and travels backwards in time. This is lead-and-asbestos sandwich stupid, but it's part of the narrative and we accept it because it's fun to watch. Nothing even remotely that dumb happens in Infinity War or Endgame.
So, again, why are we willingly turning our brains off for other films but suddenly jumping all over Endgame? It's not like Winter Soldier or Black Panther don't have things that are just as weird/silly.
Edited by Fighteer on May 16th 2019 at 2:35:59 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"![]()
We don't? There is nothing wrong with pointing them out, and it is also your own decision how much they bother you. I always hated Superman turning back time by flying around the earth. It was just stupid.
I do think that it is pretty much OOC that they make the heist unnecessarily complicated. And how they split up the teams. I will never stop complaining about the one problem I have with the movie which could have been easily solved by actually utilizing Carol.
For what it is worth though, I don't think that one can judge Endgame (or any of the Avengers movie, really) like other movies. They are events. And that is not a diss. I wouldn't judge a horror movie the same way I would judge or romcom either…
though on second thought, those genres have a lot in common.
Edited by Swanpride on May 16th 2019 at 11:43:45 AM
Regardless of what you think of the characters taking the actions they did, they are all internally consistent with the story and plot elements that have been established at that point, which is all I really care about in this sort of film.
Anyway, what would Carol have accomplished in the second act? There is no need in that part of the story to fly around and blast things, and it's already established that going back in time to kill Thanos or whatever won't change anything that has already happened in the characters' timeline.
Endgame isn't about Captain Marvel. She gets to be The Cavalry in the third act, which is exactly what I wanted to see. Not too much, not too little.
Edited by Fighteer on May 16th 2019 at 3:20:21 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"That's really not the point. I wouldn't be in this topic if I didn't enjoy talking about this sort of thing. Furthermore, it's kind of disingenuous to post your opinion on a public forum and not expect it to be debated.
Edited by Fighteer on May 16th 2019 at 4:06:15 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"??? We already moved from disliking or not to "could this movie be improved by doing X"...at least I hope that we did that. I am certainly not in a mood about a discussion about so called plot holes. There is only one moment in the movie which can even be featured in a discussion like this imho. But again: Spoiler threat.
Meanwhile...I wonder a little bit about the break between the different parts of the franchises. I mean, originally there were three main franchises, so the various parts were never more than three years apart, with Avenger appearance inbetween. But currently there are already six franchises in the MCU, with more around the corner...I worry that this might lead to really long waiting times.
Wait...he did what?
Edited by Swanpride on May 16th 2019 at 1:11:04 AM
You mind posting the specific comment where Fiege said that? I scoured the thread, and couldn't find one where he specifically said the Netflix shows weren't canon.
At best, he just didn't answer any questions related to the TV shows. Which makes sense, as I don't think he has any creative say on how the shows play out.
Edited by chasemaddigan on May 16th 2019 at 4:19:01 AM
Honestly, that isn't complicated. They Netflix shows end before the snap. At least until they decide to reuse the characters, the shows are connected. And Ao S is still trying, though it remains to see if they will pull it off. It is more shows like Cloak and Dagger and Runaways which are kind of in a fix.
I get the feeling that it might be lucky that they never really used him for Ironman. I suspect he would be more interesting in a Shang-Chi movie. Hell, I might finally get what Runaways didn't give me...
Edited by Swanpride on May 16th 2019 at 1:24:52 AM
That was more for me than for anyone else here. Wasn't my intent to tell you otherwise.
He does mention that the Disney+ shows are going to be intertwined with the movies, but that doesn't mean anything in regards to the Netflix shows.
Falcon & The Winter Soldier series start filming in October [1]
