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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#102201: May 8th 2019 at 9:08:41 PM

Killing people is practically most of what he does

Although I was mostly listing their respective policies on orphans rather than the full rap sheet

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#102202: May 8th 2019 at 9:09:05 PM

Batman even raises a baby alien like Starro who dons a Robin suit and everything!

Edited by OmegaRadiance on May 8th 2019 at 9:09:26 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#102203: May 8th 2019 at 9:09:59 PM

I'm pretty sure even Thanos would find Crazy Steve excessive.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#102204: May 8th 2019 at 9:11:53 PM

One whom he named "Jarro". Because he keeps him in a jar.

...What do you expect from a guy who names everything "Bat-something"?

Like cooking, handling personal trauma, and maintaining healthy interpersonal relationships, naming things is yet another one of the skills Batman has utterly failed to master.

Disgusted, but not surprised
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#102205: May 8th 2019 at 9:19:25 PM

Batman doesn't kill (humanoid life forms capable of speech) anymore, he just causes traumatic brain injuries, physically cripples, psychologically predates and manipulates, tortures...
I feel like his fans are overly proud of his moral code, one that isn't nearly as pure as they state.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#102206: May 8th 2019 at 9:32:12 PM

[up]There was actually a comics storyline revolving around this, with the antagonists being a bunch of random crooks who were all left permanently injured and scarred by Batman in separate incidents.

Edited by M84 on May 9th 2019 at 12:32:30 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#102207: May 8th 2019 at 9:49:15 PM

I kinda find the idea that it "apologizes for abusive fathers" to be a weird.

Lemme explain a little better what I meant. I actually wasn't talking about Thanos, but since it was mentioned...

What should the scene have done? Do people think Thanos should've been written to NOT think he cared about Gommorah? Well that's boring. Do people think the stone should've had some kind of measuring stick for what objective love is?

It's an omniscient magical universe energy rock, it can do whatever the writers want. So it having a measuring stick for objective love wouldn't be out of place at all.

Anyway, I was actually talking about Tony's reunion with Howard Stark. In Endgame, Tony closes his mixed feelings towards his father by reuniting with him in the past, and hearing Howard worry about his fear of raising a child leads to Tony to conclude that Howard was ultimately trying his best just like Tony.

Which I find really weird because it's been canon since Iron Man 2 that Howard was emotionally neglectful to Tony throughout all his life. Tony doesn't have any reason to fear that he's going to screw up raising Morgan like Howard screwed up with him. For the past five years Tony's apparently been a fantastic dad. So hearing Tony brush off his flaws as 'my dad fumbled but I fumble too' is weird because Tony hasn't fumbled anywhere near as bad as Howard from what we've seen. And then Howard does the same thing with 'yeah my dad beat me but that's just all he knew' which is even worse of a dismissal??

To be honest, Howard Stark was so often portrayed mostly-heroic throughout much of the MCU that sometimes I wonder if the films just forgot that he sucked as a dad. Also it's really weird in retrospect that the "Howard was flawed but good intentioned" scene opens with him asking where's his Nazi torture-man coworker.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on May 8th 2019 at 10:02:53 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#102208: May 8th 2019 at 10:32:10 PM

It's not really a dismissal. I think the point is more to show how what we consider "parenting" has changed over the decades. Also, considering that Howard is a Walt Disney expy, a very hidden hint to the realities of Walt Disney's own childhood.

And regarding Thanos: I think that so many people have a hard time with it because they don't understand that love and abuse are not two different things.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#102209: May 8th 2019 at 10:59:28 PM

They are two different things tho.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#102210: May 8th 2019 at 11:06:29 PM

Yeah, love and abuse are not the same thing. How does that even work?

Maybe you meant to say "love and abuse are not mutually exclusive" or something?

Disgusted, but not surprised
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#102211: May 8th 2019 at 11:10:40 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah, I watched Saving Mr. Banks yesterday, and Walt mentioned how his father would make him deliver newspaper on bone-chilling snow days and if he doesn't do a good job, he would meet father's belt. Which is how Howard described his childhood experience with his father.

Yet Walt stated that he still loved his father. And when you look at Tony Stark's words to Howard, he mentioned he could only remember the good times despite knowing neglectfulness and emotional abuse from his father. Nostalgia has a funny way of coloring reflections.

There could be many times where our parents did something wrong or abusive to us, and yet we somehow are prone to filter all of that out to remember the best memories with our parents. I guess we'll never know why.

Edited by Shadao on May 8th 2019 at 11:15:54 AM

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#102212: May 8th 2019 at 11:18:19 PM

I wonder just at what point in time did Howard Stark turned from Dominic Cooper into John Slattery.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#102213: May 8th 2019 at 11:23:34 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah, that's what I meant.

[up][up] Saving Mr. Banks was apparently kind to old man Disney.

Edited by Swanpride on May 8th 2019 at 11:27:27 AM

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#102214: May 8th 2019 at 11:27:03 PM

[up][up] Well, he became John Slattery during the 70s at the very least.

[up] Oh I know they soften the actual events of that particular story, but I do believe Walt's in-universe story about his father is real. It doesn't paint Elias Disney in a flattering light and from what I've read about Disney's early days, it's not far from the truth.

Edited by Shadao on May 8th 2019 at 11:29:47 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#102215: May 8th 2019 at 11:27:04 PM

[up][up][up] There's a shot in, I think it was Age of Ultron, where they have an image of a young Howard Stark on the screen and it's a composite of Cooper and Slattery's faces. So we're just supposed to assume that his face naturally changed to be that way with time.

Edited by AlleyOop on May 8th 2019 at 2:27:13 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#102216: May 9th 2019 at 12:10:41 AM

Huh it’s like how in How I Met Your Mother when Ted Mosbey played by Josh Radnor becomes Bob Saget.

Family Guy did an entire bit about it.

Edited by slimcoder on May 9th 2019 at 12:17:53 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#102217: May 9th 2019 at 1:04:38 AM

Which I find really weird because it's been canon since Iron Man 2 that Howard was emotionally neglectful to Tony throughout all his life.
Emotionally neglectful is not the same thing as emotionally abusive. There's a big through-line about Tony's need to talk to his father and/or get his father's approval, going from the very first Iron Man ("I never got to say goodbye to Dad. I never got to say goodbye to my father. There's questions that I would have asked him. I would have asked him how he felt about what this company did. If he was conflicted, if he ever had doubts.") to Iron Man 2 (the entire Stark Expo) to The Avengers ("That's the guy my dad never shut up about?") to Captain America: Civil War (the entire BARF opening scene) and then all the way around a circle with Avengers: Endgame (where instead of Tony asking his father if he had any doubts, Howard asks Tony and Tony realizes that his father was trying his best, even if he failed at times).

It's one of those things where you realize that almost all of Iron Man's films have been leading up to Endgame's scene, which a very nice put of Arc Welding (considering the movies were written and directed by many different people). Tony's issues with his father didn't stop after Iron Man 2 revealed Howard loved him; they continued and probably would have still continued past Endgame if Tony hadn't died.

Edited by alliterator on May 9th 2019 at 1:04:57 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#102218: May 9th 2019 at 1:35:29 AM

Also, while it is never addressed in the movies directly, Agent Carter provides a huge puzzle piece to Howards behaviour towards Tony. Howard always felt guilty over what his weapons did in WWII. He always felt that everything he built was destructive with one sole exception: Captain America. For Howard Cap was the one weapon which truly did some good, hence he spend his life searching for him. From the perspective of Tony, though, he read it as Howard holding him to an impossible standard. Hence the line that Tony is Howard's best creation is so important. And it is a shame that Howard never managed to make this clear to Tony while he was still alive.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#102219: May 9th 2019 at 3:46:25 AM

To be super extra clear, the scene in Endgame is not about apologizing for the way Howard Stark behaved toward Tony. It's about Tony reconciling his feelings about his father and becoming emotionally whole. This is a desirable thing that can be accomplished without condoning anyone's actions.

One is not supposed to take away from the MCU that raising one's kids in a cold, distant manner turns them into genius industrialists. At least I hope that's not what anyone really believes.

Edited by Fighteer on May 9th 2019 at 6:48:10 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#102220: May 9th 2019 at 4:23:52 AM

Honestly, the major take-away from the MCU seems to be that families tend to be dysfunctional, but you should always try your best.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#102221: May 9th 2019 at 5:34:10 AM

[up]Which I feel is a pretty good message.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#102222: May 9th 2019 at 7:02:18 AM

Guardians 2 would probably be the most clear on that theme then

Just full of people trying to raise above their dysfunction and the abuse they suffered

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#102223: May 9th 2019 at 9:45:49 AM

They even have a kid.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#102224: May 9th 2019 at 9:52:44 AM

If anyone hasn’t seen Lindsay Ellis’ video on Guardians 2, I strongly recommend it. Beautiful analysis of the themes of family and trauma and more.

Edited by wisewillow on May 9th 2019 at 9:53:06 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#102225: May 9th 2019 at 11:02:52 AM

The theme is also very strong in Ant-man. I mean, there is no abuse theme in it, Cassie is a very lucky girl, but I just enjoy how all the adults in her life try to protect her one way or another, how nobody is portrayed as some sort of idiot or shrew just to portray Scott's desire to see his daughter as right - in fact, the movie comes pretty much down on the "first get you life in order and your priorities straight" side of the argument - and how they eventually come to an arrangement in which all of them get along for Cassie's sake.


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