Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
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- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
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- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Not every superhero needs to be defined by spectacle. If there’s one thing Homecoming did right, it’s put Peter on a level that fits him best as a character.
Part of the reason I suspect everything about Mysterio is full of shit is because of how much of a departure this otherwise would be from Peter’s general mythos.
Edited by KnownUnknown on May 6th 2019 at 12:34:00 PM
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Obviously not, but I don't mean it that way. Now don't get me wrong, I have problems with previous Spider-Man movies too. But by spectacle, I actually mean like a feeling of epicness. It's hard to define, but in most Spider-Man movies, you get that "vertigo" sensation when he is web-slinging, like you were actually moving around between buildings. It's an unique feeling and one of my favourite aspects of the character, as it's really part of his identity, kinda like the pleasure of wall-crawling in Spider-Man video games. And... I feel like Homecoming falls a bit flat in that department. The web-slinging falls flat and just doesn't feel as intense or breath-taking, or as unique.
I know it's a detail, but sometimes details can have a huge impact. Yes, Spider-Man is a street-level hero and not the kind to take cosmic threat on regular basis. But part of what makes him great is that he makes street-level superheroism feel epic.
Edited by Theokal3 on May 6th 2019 at 9:40:02 PM
To each their own. I like this version of Spider-Man because he's not an eternal Butt-Monkey. Even though that is part of the original, it's the part I like least about the character.
Edited by Fighteer on May 6th 2019 at 5:21:48 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I agreed in Civil War, but I feel he is becoming a bit of a Butt-Monkey now.
Retaining spoiler tags just in case.
It annoys me that some people online are so whiny-mad about Sam getting the Shield instead of Bucky.
Quoting Dr. Erskine from the first Captain America movie:
"But more important, the man. The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great; bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because the strong man who has known power all his life, may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows compassion. ... Whatever happens tomorrow you must promise me one thing. That you will stay who you are. Not a perfect soldier, but a good man."
Quoting the Russos, who directed all four movies Cap, Bucky and Sam have all interacted in:
“So far as matching the level of integrity of Captain America, Sam is pound for pound as morally forthright as anyone in the Marvel universe. And Bucky's a damaged character,” says Joe Russo. His brother Anthony adds that they debated the choice, but the bond Steve and Sam formed in “Winter Soldier” sealed a certain trust. “Sam spends his time trying to repair other people who are broken by war, and it just feels like he has the same values as Captain America.”
Comparing the two, Bucky has gone through the ringer and while he can fight, he's very clearly a broken man who has spent the last four movies (end of Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War, and end of Endgame) clearly wanting to stop fighting and get some well deserved rest. He has done his battles, and is working on himself.
Meanwhile, Sam has also been through war, and as of Infinity War was heroing alongside Cap for about four years longer than Bucky. But when he left military service, he dedicated his life to working on others, helping other people in non-combat ways. And he still jumped at the chance to help in every movie he was in, including putting his life on hold to be a vigilante for the time between Civil War and Infinity War.
But some people just want a white guy with powers punching people, despite that not being what this is about.
I agree. Giving Bucky the shield would be almost unkind, placing a responsibility on him that he wouldn't want to bear and shouldn't have to bear. Giving it to Sam, who's in a far more mentally health and stable place and who wants to be a hero, makes far more sense.
But I do think it's fair to be unhappy with the utter lack of focus on Bucky and Steve's relationship in Endgame, given how it's been at the centre of the last two Captain America movies. The movie should have given them more time to interact and reconnect - they've barely spoken since Bucky came out of hibernation in Wakanda.
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For whatever it's worth, I completely agree with the choice they made. And while we don't see it on-screen, the way Bucky acts during that scene makes it clear that he knows exactly what's going to happen, so I assume they spoke prior to the trip.
Also, not to be contrarian, but I think that Bucky and Steve made their peace and said everything that needed to be said in Civil War. A big reunion scene isn't necessary since they don't have anything to resolve.
Edited by Fighteer on May 6th 2019 at 9:25:11 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"![]()
That is fair, but:
-
That, and
- Even if they didn't talk, it's clear they had an unspoken understanding, furthered by how done they both were.
- Given how close Bucky and Sam (and Wanda) were at the funeral, I think it's a given that the three of them have had some time to do some catching up and friendship building.
On another note, the dusting of some characters in Infinity War gave some unsung moments. T'Challa, Groot, and Parker's reactions were more obvious. Quill's/the Guardians' understated reactions did them a disservice, particularly Quill, who got blamed for the whole thing failing. But one moment that I've been liking for a while is that Rhodey's first response was to look for Sam. The two do not get along, and have an at best, friendly rivalry (akin to the 12th Doctor and Danny Pink's Officer vs Soldier disagreements), but the two very quickly and quietly put aside petty grudges in that movie.
And on a third note, I previously expressed doubt that despite the success of Civil War, Black Panther, and Infinity War, the MCU's next films could pull them above an average of a billion dollars. So far I'm still right to express doubt, but it'll actually happen if between Captain Marvel and Endgame they can make another (as of this post, according to Wikipedia): $1,161,427,606 during their current releases.
Edited by wanderlustwarrior on May 6th 2019 at 8:30:45 AM
What’s sad is Sam might have a better run as Cap here than he did in the comics.
Compared to to Bucky-Cap, Sam-Cap I believe did not get as much acclaim.
Though shit at least Bucky didn’t have to deal with Secret Empire. God that event fucked over everyone, poor Sam especially cause he got the brunt of it.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."Sam's run on Captain America was used as a vehicle to explore the rising resurgence of white supremacy and racism in the United States, particularly as it pertains to black and Hispanic communities. This did not sit well with certain elements of the superhero fandom.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Of course, because I feel to be said, that means the ones who hate the mirror they saw. Not because they're vampires or necessarily ugly on the outside, but because they're cowards ugly on the inside.
Separate note, shout out to Falcon stabbing that giant monster with his wings on that one landing. The Russos really know how to make him look badass. And I've been saying for months they like giving him a good establishing shot entrance in and out of costume in each movie, but in this one? "On your left." chills.
Edited by wanderlustwarrior on May 6th 2019 at 8:34:48 AM
I didn't read that era, because I don't read many comic stories.
I do understand there is value in allegory and subtlety. That said, when some people hitch about thing being "too politically correct" and twist anything other than outright condemnation... Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped.
Nick Spencer’s run was actually pretty recent and it was hated not because it was being “too politically correct” but rather because he has no clue as to the topics he was addressing in the book. Especially compare to Ewings run of Captain America and the Mighty Avengers (which in hindsight Marvel should of let Ewing wrote the character of Captain Falcon) and Coate’s current run of Captain America which actually does a better job in addressing real world political issues and societal problems in a nuance way and effictively in a way that allows the readers to reflect on it after reading the books.
Reposting since the discussion seems more active here, but:
I've seen a lot of the outrage about Sam getting the shield over Bucky, and while I'm sure there's some ranting that definitely comes from rabid Bucky fangirls or Sam haters/racists, it's usually from people who actually love Sam and approve of him getting it on the whole.
Their issue is more with the way the Russos (and some others) framed it by insinuating that Bucky didn't deserve it because he's damaged goods, too crazy and broken to have it, as if the abuse and brainwashing was somehow a personal failing of his, rather than him choosing to decline it due to a desire for rest or atonement first, because he agreed with Steve that Sam was that good, or any other reasons that didn't seem so mean-spirited. Basically they did it in a way that looked like punching Bucky down in a way they found ableist and invoked the non-sexual version of Defiled Forever when it came to victims of trauma.
Edited by AlleyOop on May 6th 2019 at 10:52:00 AM
If the whole block of spoiler text was all of the Russo's quote it does sound like its a decision Bucky made or would make. That he wants to stop fighting and work on himself. Which is supported by what T'Challa says in Infinity War about not knowing if Bucky would even want to join the fight.
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Edited by Falrinn on May 6th 2019 at 3:21:24 PM