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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#101751: May 4th 2019 at 6:23:52 AM

I just hope marvel can continue with having good villains. Phase 3 was a lot better than the other phases for that, but it was still eeeeeeh in a lot of places.

Kaze ni Nare!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#101752: May 4th 2019 at 6:25:52 AM

Writing good villains isn't easy. I also don't think that they are necessarily needed for a good movie.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#101753: May 4th 2019 at 6:39:00 AM

[up] They aren't "needed". I'd honestly rather a film not have one than include one that the writers obviously don't give a shit about. But they're a nice treat for me and they improve my personal enjoyment of a film a lot.

Kaze ni Nare!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#101754: May 4th 2019 at 5:41:37 PM

I’d be rather amused to see a entire phase of superhero films without villains.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#101755: May 4th 2019 at 5:57:49 PM

Avengers: Shawarma Date: Part II

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#101756: May 4th 2019 at 7:33:27 PM

[up][up] Given how worthless they sometimes feel, I'd like to see them try.

Generall, I'm of the opinion that if you're going to include something in a story, if you believe it's important enough to be needed, you should put in the effort to make that element GOOD.

Kaze ni Nare!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101757: May 4th 2019 at 7:37:42 PM

[up] You are acting is if a movie without a villain wouldn't be good. I'm not talking about having a bad or uninteresting villain — I'm talking about having no villain. The conflict comes from something else entirely. (Yes, I know this is hard to imagine with a superhero movie, but there are films without villains.)

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#101758: May 4th 2019 at 7:42:19 PM

[up] I'm not. I wasn't being sarcastic. I would honestly MUCH prefer them to not have a villain if they're not going to try.

I have a bit of a villain fixation, but I'm not stupid.

Edited by GNinja on May 4th 2019 at 2:43:29 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101759: May 4th 2019 at 7:51:06 PM

Funnily enough, the graphic novel The Death of Captain Marvel is one of the few comic books that has no villain — the entire thing is about Mar-Vell learning that he has cancer, unable to cure or even halt the spread of that cancer, everybody (even his enemies the Skrulls) coming to pay their last respects to him before he dies, and then him dying. Hell, Thanos appears, but not as a villain: he shows Mar-Vell the path to the afterlife and then gives him an illusion of a final battle, so he could die fighting rather than in bed. It is genuinely one of the most melancholy stories that Marvel has ever published and is one of the biggest reasons why Mar-Vell has never returned to life, as everyone saw this as a fitting end for him.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#101760: May 4th 2019 at 7:59:58 PM

You know, people say that too many people love villains.

I disagree. I think the success of the MCU proves that people at large DON'T care that much about villains.

It's kind of upsetting for someone like me who loves them (note I'm not saying those who focus more on heroes are wrong, it just means I'm catered to a lot less often). They aren't always needed for a story, but I do think there's something of a dearth of decent villains in modern cinema and tv

Kaze ni Nare!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#101761: May 4th 2019 at 8:06:35 PM

I love villains so I'd definitely prefer we get some good ones.

Phase 3 gave us Ego, Killmonger, Vulture, Thanos, and Ghost, who were all pretty great.

Still hoping for a Thunderbolts movie centered around Abomination, Vulture, Ghost, newly-introduced Mockingbird, and Zemo, with the latter betraying them to become the movie's real villain.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on May 4th 2019 at 11:07:35 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#101762: May 4th 2019 at 8:09:17 PM

Actually, pretty unpopular opinion. Killmonger didn't click for me at all and I don't really know why.

It felt like everything that people loved about him I just didn't see. I didn't think his performance was anything special, I didn't believe a single one of his lines about slavery and all that. He just felt like a guy who wanted revenge. Which is an acceptable villain motive, but it didnt' stand out particularly.

Kaze ni Nare!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#101763: May 4th 2019 at 8:12:43 PM

Okay then who is a good villain here?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101764: May 4th 2019 at 8:13:08 PM

newly-introduced Mockingbird
I think you mean Songbird; Mockingbird was already introduced in Agents of SHIELD and was never part of the Thunderbolts.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#101765: May 4th 2019 at 8:14:36 PM

[up][up] I liked Ego (although I thought he lost a lot of his personality when he flipped his villain switch) and Vulture and Thanos a lot. Ultron too.

Edited by GNinja on May 4th 2019 at 3:15:27 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#101766: May 4th 2019 at 8:14:45 PM

The appeal of Killmonger is that beneath his violent methods, he DID have a decent point obfuscated beneath all that about how Wakanda COULD be sharing their tech with the world, but does not yet choose to and comes off to him at least as neglecting black individuals worldwide. I've always liked how T'Challa clearly kept his ideology in mind and did indeed open up Wakanda to the world, albeit peacefully. That and MBJ just absolutely nails the role.

Edited by AyyItsMidnight on May 4th 2019 at 8:15:05 AM

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#101767: May 4th 2019 at 8:15:32 PM

[up][up] Ultron would be worthy of that qualification if he wasn't so nerfed though sadly.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#101768: May 4th 2019 at 8:17:19 PM

[up] Yeah, his personality makes up for it, but his weakness was easily the worst part of AOU for me.

Kaze ni Nare!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#101769: May 4th 2019 at 8:21:26 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]You're right, my bad. Damn birds.

Re: Killmonger, he really clicked for me when he openly admitted that he knew his plan would backfire on Wakanda and the people he sought to arm, and didn't care because he just wanted the whole world to burn. There's just an angry, inextinguishable flame inside him that I find interesting.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on May 4th 2019 at 11:21:42 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#101770: May 4th 2019 at 8:25:01 PM

I think it honestly might JUST be the performance. MJ just didn't do it for me. Everyone was blown away by him but I just didn't see it.

Maybe it'll work when I watch the film again.

Kaze ni Nare!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#101771: May 4th 2019 at 9:15:18 PM

So this redesign of Carol's Warbird/swimsuit outsuit was recommended to me, shout out to troper @Guy 01 for finding it.

https://imgur.com/bKmO9qq

Thoughts, does it work, does it look good for a live-action movie?

Edited by slimcoder on May 4th 2019 at 9:15:46 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101772: May 4th 2019 at 9:17:58 PM

I think it's a good alternate design for her, but I still prefer the red/blue/gold version. Also, the helmet is better than the mask.

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#101773: May 4th 2019 at 9:30:55 PM

Appreciate the shoutout, slimcoder. [tup]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#101774: May 4th 2019 at 11:28:03 PM

Count me in as someone for whom Killmonger didn't click.

Anyway, I don't think that villains are strictly needed, but I prefer the smart ones - Zemo, Alexander Pierce via Hydra (who also has the most badass weapon in The Winter Soldier and the Vulture (who also has what might be the most interesting relationship to the hero) springs to mind, the complex but unpredictable ones - Hello Loki. Hello Grand Ward. Hello Aida - and the ones which are thematically strong and threatening, see Ego or Thanos or Killgrave

I also liked how Captain Marvel handled the villain.

But I also like villains like Ronan which are more serviceable than the centre of the movie. They will never be the best of the best, but if they work for the story the movie tries to tell, I gladly take them.

And, btw, I think that Marvel's so called "villain problem" is greatly overstated.

Btw, Ant-man and the Wasp technically didn't have a villain. Unless you count some small time gangster as villain.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#101775: May 5th 2019 at 12:07:34 AM

Ronan is surprisingly good for a villain who had to share his film with five heroes' origin stories; it's bad enough when it's just one, as we see with Kaecillius, Cross, Red Skull, Yon-Rogg, and Stane all being various degrees of serviceable-but-somewhat-underdeveloped.

It helps that Ronan's a single-minded space terrorist who doesn't need much development or backstory. He has his crusade he's devoted his life to, and said crusade makes him the obstacle in our heroes' journey.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on May 5th 2019 at 3:14:11 PM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

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