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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101551: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:52:26 PM

[up][up] Please remove your spoilers and put them in the spoiler thread. This thread should remain spoiler free.

Edited by alliterator on Apr 28th 2019 at 4:52:41 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#101552: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:52:29 PM

I think it would be mistake to go lower the stakes after Endgame personally,look at how much money they've made (billions) they know this stuff sells and they know its what audiences want to see,no no keep making the threats bigger and badder each time because that's how sell a Marvel Block buster

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#101553: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:53:36 PM

you thought you were safe from the spoilers,but they were all along,waiting to activate when the time was right..

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#101554: Apr 28th 2019 at 5:16:41 PM

Making every threat from here on out have the same stakes is creative sterility. The value in having a shared universe is the ability to tell stories with a variety of settings and plots.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#101555: Apr 28th 2019 at 5:18:50 PM

I like that Ant Man and Also the Wasp had very personal stakes all around

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#101556: Apr 28th 2019 at 5:33:15 PM

Future CM and Got G can handle cosmic tier stakes, Spider-man and Black Panther can do local and (inter)national respectively. And other future stuff can of course be whatever stake they need.

But aside from maybe Doctor Strange stuff, I don't see anything approaching full blown universe-tier threats again any time soon.

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#101557: Apr 28th 2019 at 6:35:30 PM

Someone mentioned that no-one talks about depowering Thor and uh... 2/3 of his movies have him lose Mjolnir. The former along with all of his powers, the latter leaving him with just super strength (at first). In fact, the worst Thor movie is the one where he keeps his powers throughout (though that's more correlation than causation).

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 28th 2019 at 6:35:57 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#101558: Apr 28th 2019 at 6:36:59 PM

That is some funny-ass irony.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#101559: Apr 28th 2019 at 7:20:47 PM

Tony also spends a good chunk of Iron Man 3 stuck without a functioning suit and having to improvise stuff. Which is kinda like a power-loss arc, complete with "With or without the suit, I am Iron Man".

And Hulk in Infinity War, too. That counts.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Apr 28th 2019 at 10:21:46 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101560: Apr 28th 2019 at 7:28:27 PM

In Thor: Ragnarok, Thor loses his hammer, but he is never depowered. I mean, that was kind of the whole point of the movie. What is he, the god of hammers?

And the Hulk certainly isn't depowered in Infinity War, he just refuses to come out, so Bruce replaces him with Hulkbuster armor.

Edited by alliterator on Apr 28th 2019 at 7:29:32 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#101561: Apr 28th 2019 at 7:45:08 PM

It still counts. The hero is unable to use their powers for a plot-related reason. It's true that Thor can become the God of Thunder whenever he wants, but he doesn't realize that until the climax.

Bruce being unable to turn into Hulk because Hulk is in a snit over being mistreated is a fun (and funny) character development arc, but it also means he isn't able to go ham on Thanos or his minions (the Hulkbuster suit aside). Oh, and he gets a double handful of depower because he's Worfed at the very start, when Thanos pounds him into the dirt.

I do like that Infinity War gets the elephant in the room out onto the dance floor right away, by answering the blatantly obvious question, "Why not send Hulk at him?" It's much like how Endgame (no spoilers here) gets some of the questions about its own story right out into the open and addresses them itself.

The Russos are actually quite famous for this: they acknowledge their own use of tropes in order to absorb potential criticism and turn it to their advantage.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 28th 2019 at 10:51:56 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#101562: Apr 28th 2019 at 7:58:49 PM

Well, Hulk isn't technically de-powered. He simply is beaten. It actually wouldn't help Bruce to become Hulk that much, as he's still weaker than Thanos.

Leviticus 19:34
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#101563: Apr 28th 2019 at 8:11:54 PM

And it's also nicely set up so that even having Hulk wouldn't do anything to stop Thanos, since by the time he gets to Wakanda, he's God and shrugs off the Avengers' feeble attacks like flies.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101564: Apr 28th 2019 at 8:12:03 PM

Oh, and he gets a double handful of depower because he's Worfed at the very start, when Thanos pounds him into the dirt.
Being Worfed isn't being depowered. It just means they encountered someone more powerful than them.

It feels like these are all excuses to depower Captain Marvel — like saying "Oh it doesn't matter since it happened to Thor and the Hulk and so on." Except...it didn't really. Thor still had his power, he just learned to use it...much like Carol did in Captain Marvel. And the Hulk was a completely different thing altogether.

The only thing that counts as depowering is when someone actually loses their power. Tony start doesn't have his suit for most of Iron Man 3, yes, but that's not his power, his intellect is. The only time someone was depowered was the first Thor and that was an origin story, so it was practically required that Thor prove he was worthy of his power. Something Carol has already done.

Edited by alliterator on Apr 28th 2019 at 8:14:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#101565: Apr 28th 2019 at 8:15:10 PM

Oi. You're being technical. Worfing followed by Achilles in His Tent is a way to take Hulk out of the picture and make him unable to contribute, thus checking off boxes in the "how to keep a powerful character from solving the plot" form.

Yes, even full-power Hulk couldn't stop Thanos. Yes, even full-power Thor couldn't stop him. Full-power Captain Marvel... *cough* spoilers. The point is that this is all part of the writer's toolbox. If there is a need to nerf Carol so that something can be threatening to her yet not so godlike as to make everyone else's efforts meaningless, there's a stock list of ways to do it, and it doesn't have to devalue her characterization.

I feel like we're arguing over the definition of "depower", which is not my intention. I'm trying to think of the appropriate trope for "character temporarily loses access to their full arsenal to escalate the threat and establish dramatic tension".

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 28th 2019 at 11:18:11 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101566: Apr 28th 2019 at 8:21:52 PM

Worfing followed by Worf Had the Flu (or in this case, a temper tantrum) is a way to take Hulk out of the picture and make him unable to contribute, thus checking off boxes in the "how to keep a powerful character from solving the plot" form.
You're right, but that's still not the same thing as depowering. "Keeping a powerful character from solving the plot early" can take the form of many, many things, but depowering is pretty specific to "removing their (very specific) power." And it's been used so many times with female characters in comic books, including Carol Danvers herself, that it would be supremely silly if they did it in the movies.

I feel like we're arguing over the definition of "depower", which is not my intention. I'm trying to think of the appropriate trope for "character temporarily loses access to their full arsenal to escalate the threat and establish dramatic tension".
Which could happen to Carol without her losing her powers. That's what I'm saying.

(Also, just because I'm a nerd, it's Gold Kryptonite that takes away Superman's powers. Green Kryptonite is merely toxic to him and will kill him.)

Edited by alliterator on Apr 28th 2019 at 8:22:58 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#101567: Apr 28th 2019 at 8:24:00 PM

I think all of these count as de-powering to a certain extent. Thor losing Mjolnir in Ragnarok didn't remove all of his power entirely, but he lost everything but his super strength until much later in the film, and the film definitely plays it like he's weaker, even in that aspect.

Tony losing his Iron Man suit for much of Iron Man 3 and Bruce being unable to turn into Hulk for all of Infinity War still very much count. Tony getting his suit back and Bruce getting in the Hulkbuster don't change that because both of those happen closer to the end of those films.

Just to clarify, I am not arguing for Carol to be depowered (because that kind of arc was already the plot of her first movie). I feel like the reason you're arguing for such a strict definition of "depowered" is just that you want to shut down anyone thinking along those lines, and I'm not.

[up]Green Kryptonite also sometimes makes him weaker, and the effect of Gold Kryptonite is permanent.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 28th 2019 at 8:26:38 AM

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#101568: Apr 28th 2019 at 8:25:51 PM

So random question.

Carol vs Hela. Who wins?

Uni cat
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101569: Apr 28th 2019 at 8:26:09 PM

Tony losing his Iron Man suit for much of Iron Man 3
But the suit isn't his power; again, his intellect is his power. Hell, there's an entire montage of him creating weapons from a hardware store and infiltrating a terrorist base with them. As for Thor in Ragnarok, he definitely uses lightning along with his strength, even if he unlocks it fully at the end. Hell, he would have won his fight with the Hulk had the Grandmaster not cheated.

Edited by alliterator on Apr 28th 2019 at 8:26:50 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#101570: Apr 28th 2019 at 8:31:35 PM

Those tools wouldn't have worked as well as an Iron Man suit. The suit functionally gives Tony superpowers beyond human capabilities, and him losing the suit absolutely counts as a depowering arc. The fact the film goes on to emphasise how Tony's intelligence is his real strength doesn't change that.

We're not arguing with semantic definitions of words, we're arguing about a type of narrative arc where a hero loses their power and they need to rediscover who they are or prove themselves worthy of having their power before they can have it back, and the above movies absolutely count as examples of that type of narrative arc.

A character only losing part of their power can still 100% count, if the narrative of that film supports it, and both Ragnarok and Iron Man 3 definitely do.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 28th 2019 at 8:33:27 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#101571: Apr 28th 2019 at 8:34:32 PM

The depower thing also includes iconic equipment.

The loss of his armor does qualify as a depower even if it technically isn't a power because it functions to the same general reasoning.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101572: Apr 28th 2019 at 8:59:13 PM

We're not arguing with semantic definitions of words, we're arguing about a type of narrative arc where a hero loses their power and they need to rediscover who they are or prove themselves worthy of having their power before they can have it back, and the above movies absolutely count as examples of that type of narrative arc.
But, as I stated, that narrative arc already happened for Carol in Captain Marvel, where she had her powers limited and then learned who she was and took back her power, proving that she, well, didn't need to prove herself to anyone else. Doing that story over again would be repetitive.

Green Kryptonite also sometimes makes him weaker, and the effect of Gold Kryptonite is permanent.
Green Kryptonite makes him weaker in the same way that any toxin would make a person weaker — because it's literally killing him. Also, post-Crisis, Gold Kryptonite only temporarily depowers Kryptonians.

Edited by alliterator on Apr 28th 2019 at 9:00:31 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#101573: Apr 28th 2019 at 9:46:34 PM

But, as I stated, that narrative arc already happened for Carol in Captain Marvel, where she had her powers limited and then learned who she was and took back her power, proving that she, well, didn't need to prove herself to anyone else. Doing that story over again would be repetitive.

I agree. Did you not read my post just before that, where I stated that exact thing? I am not saying that Carol should have a depowering movie, all I'm saying is that there are a bunch of MCU movies that do have that plot, including the first Captain Marvel.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#101574: Apr 28th 2019 at 10:18:33 PM

For one, each of those stories of characters getting "depowered" ended up with them being more powerful than before because their "true power lies within them". Especially Thor without his hammer is more badass than Thor ever was WITH his hammer. We also don't really need a "recognize your power" story for Carol because we already got one. We have already cleared this up, Carol knows exactly how strong she is, she won't get any stronger, the point of her will most likely be to explore where the limits of the power she has NOW are.

Plus, that is NOT what people usually mean when they talk about depower Carol. What they mean is "she has too much power so we need to steal at least part of her power from her permanently". They are not talking about some device which might supress her power for a while, they are not talking about making her depressed enough that she is easier to attack, they are not talking about introducing some sort of kyptonite. They are talking about dowgrading her power level, permanently. For all the jokes people make about Supes, nobody has ever suggested to make him less powerful.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#101575: Apr 28th 2019 at 10:42:50 PM

[up]Actually, I have suggested doing that before.

Leviticus 19:34

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