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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#101526: Apr 28th 2019 at 3:24:58 PM

In the Fantastic Four, all they need to do to make them suitably distinct is actually make it a good movie. That would be a heck of a novelty.

Also, a comics accurate Dr. Doom would go a long way towards giving it its own tone, since Doom's sheer personality would contribute a lot to that.

But even if they do it without Doom, they should focus on the exploration aspect and less on the superhero aspect. Imo, a good Fantastic Four movie should look like a good Lost In Space movie (ignoring for the moment that the actual Lost In Space movie was shit).

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2019 at 3:25:17 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#101527: Apr 28th 2019 at 3:29:43 PM

I hate the talk about depowering Carol simply because nobody ever talks about depowering Superman. Or Thor for that matter. (instead they spend a lot of time claiming that Thor is more powerful than her which...yeah, no).

Edited by Swanpride on Apr 28th 2019 at 3:30:13 AM

InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#101528: Apr 28th 2019 at 3:31:22 PM

[up]Same. Also considering the nature of that film's subtext, depowering her feels like a tone deaf move.

That isn't to say we cannot depower a character and, in fact, we have before. Just maybe Carol is not the character to do that with.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#101529: Apr 28th 2019 at 3:31:33 PM

To be fair, Superman does get constant "he's too powerful to be interesting, they need to stop giving him movies" flak he frankly doesn't deserve. It's not his fault he's never had a good movie.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#101530: Apr 28th 2019 at 3:33:48 PM

What? Superman gets hit with Kryptonite all the time; it's the only way to physically challenge him short of bringing out Darkseid.

The comparison is fair: Carol can't blast or punch her way through everything without getting boring. But even her own first film wasn't about blasting everything as a solution. Blasting certainly solved one problem, but only temporarily. If anything, there should be a lesson about how power alone isn't enough. You need discretion, compassion, the ability to listen and change your mind. Otherwise, you're a menace.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#101531: Apr 28th 2019 at 3:35:27 PM

[up]What? No. We didn't need that lesson. We get that lesson all the time and it's played out. I think the narrative of a villain defining all of the hero's strengths as their weakness and the hero finally wising up and rightfully punching them out is far more compelling.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#101532: Apr 28th 2019 at 3:39:20 PM

It's damned impressive to be more powerful than Thor, who for years was one of the biggest hitters alongside Hulk in the Avengers.

I'd say more about why I think that way, but I just remembered this isn't the spoiler thread.

Still being the second most powerful being in a Super hero team isn't anything to laugh about.

One Strip! One Strip!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#101533: Apr 28th 2019 at 3:43:22 PM

Do we get that lesson all the time? Most of the time the heroes are perfectly capable to punch their problems into submission. Dr. Strange is the outlier since he is the only character who openly hates to kill and who uses his mind to defeat his villain.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#101534: Apr 28th 2019 at 3:48:15 PM

I agree. We need fewer works where the solution is “here’s the bad guy, punch them out” and more works that encourage us to stop, think, and consider that maybe we’re not on the right side. That maybe the people we think of as enemies really aren’t, and maybe the people we think of as friends and allies are behaving wrongly. There’s far too little of that.

That’s why I like Winter Soldier, where Cap decides that SHIELD’s actions are wrong and that he doesn’t want to be part of them even before he knows they’ve been infiltrated. That’s why I like Captain Marvel.

Edited by Galadriel on Apr 28th 2019 at 6:50:15 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#101535: Apr 28th 2019 at 3:58:10 PM

Back to the discussion a few pages ago, I really do find it quite ironic that AOU is so important to the movies that come after it, considering all it did to dismiss or reset continuity on anything that took place before it but after the first Avengers film.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#101536: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:13:04 PM

or they could depower Carol so she's not so op

That'd be stupid; first, it's regression, and nobody ever likes that; I am pretty sure nobody would have wanted Iron Man to give up all the upgrade in his armor and return to his original bulky armor, to illustrate my point. Second, that's a problem similar to the one often made with Superman games; part of Carol's appeal is that she is so powerful. If you depower/nerf her, you lose that appeal. It's like in Luke Cage when they suddenly introduced the Judas Bullet; the entire series was around a guy who is bulletproof, so if you create bullets that can harm him, what is the point of his power at all? There's a reason the first thing season 2 did was reveal he was now immune to Judas Bullets as well.

Also come on guys, it's not like that's the first time Marvel did an OP character. Thor and Hulk both already were pretty damn powerful compared to the opponent they faced.

I hate the talk about depowering Carol simply because nobody ever talks about depowering Superman. Or Thor for that matter. (instead they spend a lot of time claiming that Thor is more powerful than her which...yeah, no).

My point exactly.

Edited by Theokal3 on Apr 28th 2019 at 1:15:07 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#101537: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:20:24 PM

I already pointed out that Supes gets depowered all the damn time so that badguys can be a challenge to him. Thor has gotten depowered several times; Hulk keeps getting depowered, or turned against the Avengers, or going into funks and refusing to fight.

Every single writer in a franchise like this runs into the same problem: how do you keep the god tier heroes from solving the plot immediately, outclassing and eclipsing the less powerful heroes, or both? The choices are, in no particular order:

  • Worf them by having the villain beat them up first to show how strong they are.
    • Less annoyingly, have them tank the villain's most powerful attacks, which gives the other heroes a chance to do the critical things that save the day.
  • Depower them temporarily with phlebotinum or Kryptonite.
  • Make them sick or in grief or in other ways unable to fight at their full potential.
  • Put them on a bus or give them "more urgent problems" to deal with, so the rest of the team has to fight without them.

Without spoilers, I will say that Endgame uses a few of these tricks, just like every other ensemble superhero film. It's not automatically lazy writing, and it makes sense in context, but I was unavoidably aware that it was being done.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 28th 2019 at 7:24:06 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#101538: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:23:39 PM

I think the issue here is that there are two definitions of "depower" with two different degrees of extremity getting bounced around here.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2019 at 4:25:46 AM

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#101539: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:25:06 PM

I already pointed out that Supes gets depowered all the damn time so that badguys can be a challenge to him. Thor has gotten depowered several times; Hulk keeps getting depowered, or turned against the Avengers, or going into funks and refusing to come out.

Yes. Temporarily each time, whereas I think some people are suggesting permanently depowering/weakening Carol. It's also usually considered not a very good plot device, or at least one that should be used sporadically. Just because it has been done before and a lot doesn't mean it should be used again.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#101540: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:25:45 PM

Well, yeah. There are permanent and temporary solutions. Most of the depowering that occurs for god-tier heroes is of the temporary kind, and they get fixed up in time to give the villain the climactic beatdown. That said, Captain Marvel herself has gone through quite a few arcs of this sort in the comics, both of the temporary and permanent kind, so it's not exactly a stretch for her film appearances to use similar tricks.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#101541: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:34:31 PM

Well, the solution to god-like heroes is to give them challenges that cannot be solved that easily with their superpowers.

Brainiac was created to give Superman a foe that can go toe-to-toe with him on physical level. While Lex Luthor brings in the brains of outwitting the Man of Steel (as well as getting a suit of armor to go toe-to-toe with Superman).

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#101542: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:40:57 PM

Little as I care for Danvers, weakening a female character who was blatantly advertised as the most powerful hero in the MCU is publicity suicide. It's never going to happen, for any amount of time.

By the way, the comment that started all this was a lame joke.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101543: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:42:53 PM

Carol should just get more and more powerful, just like Goku.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#101544: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:42:58 PM

[up][up] I absolutely agree. Nerfing your "most powerful Avenger" would be a serious narrative mistake.

[up] There has to be some limit, although I have to say that what Carol is already capable of in the MCU approaches the brokenly OP anyway.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 28th 2019 at 7:43:58 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#101545: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:44:36 PM

You know, they always said that every time Goku gets stronger, his next foe will be much more stronger than him to give Goku a real challenge. And Goku likes that because he always want another fight even if he has beaten the God of Destruction.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#101546: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:44:44 PM

> By the way, the comment that started all this was a lame joke.

Guilty as charged officer

-holds up hands,they've been handcuffed-

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#101547: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:46:17 PM

No one should become as powerful as Goku.

His obscenely high power level is an issue with modern Dragon Ball as [up][up] shows.

Edited by slimcoder on Apr 28th 2019 at 4:46:41 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#101548: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:46:54 PM

Comics aside, the MCU has so far managed to remain much more grounded, metaphorically speaking, than Dragonball. I'm not really concerned about it going that route, partly because of the constraints of live-action, and partly because Marvel and Kevin Feige are well aware of the risks of constant escalation.

I fully expect the first few Phase 4 films to be lower-stakes affairs, to give audiences an emotional break after Endgame.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 28th 2019 at 7:48:00 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SEA2000 Since: Mar, 2019
#101549: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:51:10 PM

Edited by SEA2000 on Apr 28th 2019 at 4:54:41 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#101550: Apr 28th 2019 at 4:52:04 PM

Remove that from here please.

Anything from the film constitutes as a spoiler.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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