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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#101051: Apr 22nd 2019 at 5:01:16 PM

No, I mean even for the movies people here were saying “well, we never saw any confirmed Hulk kills”. Which I don’t believe, but I’m turning that around.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#101052: Apr 22nd 2019 at 5:02:33 PM

Even so, Civil War confirmed a loooot of civilian casualties in Sokovia.

Zemo's family and also the son of that woman who yelled at Tony.

Edited by Bocaj on Apr 22nd 2019 at 8:05:50 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#101053: Apr 22nd 2019 at 5:08:27 PM

Yeah, but I said onscreen. Offscreen exposition is not scary to me.

If a movie cuts to some random guy and says “this guy killed 100 people”, it doesn’t scare me until I see him do it. And we saw a lot more of that with Loki than with Ultron, and that’s why I was scared by Loki but not by Ultron.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 22nd 2019 at 5:08:42 AM

Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#101054: Apr 22nd 2019 at 5:42:10 PM

On the topic of Joss Whedon, I do wanna add that people were calling him out for his writing back when his movies came out. Natasha's poor dialogue coming off to people as her saying that she's a monster because she can't have children, paired with Tony's god awful rape joke were controversial when Age of Ultron was released. And I remember reading several articles about the Loki adoption joke being insensitive and confusing to actual adopted children back in 2012.

People have had reasons to dislike Whedon for years, and recent behavior and controversial comments ("Batgirl is too hard to write.") have only added to what was already there. I don't think it's a sudden influx of Whedon dislike, it's just a dislike that was already there continuing to build because he just keeps doing it.

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#101055: Apr 22nd 2019 at 5:55:31 PM

[up]I think age of ultron was the turning point where a lot of people soured on him en masse.

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#101056: Apr 22nd 2019 at 6:00:23 PM

The whole "Marvelous scene" thing is a really neat idea. Let's see if I can name some highlights from characters I like:

Peter Quill: launching into Ego using the power of friends, family and Fleetwood Mac

Gamora: her last scene with Nebula in Got G 2

Nebula: talking it out with Gamora after their last fight on Ego

Groot 1.0: We. Are. Groot.

Yondu: mowing down his mutinous crew without a sweat or sacrificing himself for Peter

T'Challa: either his talk with Zemo or grilling his dad in the Ancestral Plane

Killmonger: his own trip to the Ancestral Plane

Okoye: threatening to kill W'Kabi without hesitation

Frank Castle: his beatdowns of Rawlins and Russo

Kraglin: cheering at Yondu's funeral

Peter Parker: COME ON SPIDER-MAN! or refusing to join the Avengers

Scott Lang: being a nice dad to Cassie

Adrian Toomes: his talk with Parker and Liz on the way to the Homecoming dance

Carol Danvers: breaking free from her bonds, decimating Ronan's fleet with ease and blasting away Yon-Rogg

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101057: Apr 22nd 2019 at 6:08:09 PM

So because Ultron doesn't kill random people on-screen, that makes him not scary? Yeah, I don't believe that.

And Loki wasn't going around killing people willy nilly. He killed one person on screen before he killed Coulson. Saying "But Loki killed a lot of people" is being disingenuous because, again, most of the people he killed were off-screen, like Ultron.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#101058: Apr 22nd 2019 at 6:10:29 PM

I believe the difference is Loki is not a physical threat, he's a manipulator so its okay if he doesn't fight the Avengers directly.

Ultron though is a giant powerful robot so him being not very physically competent is much less excusable.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#101059: Apr 22nd 2019 at 6:30:40 PM

[up][up]Loki's onscreen killcount is at least eight just from his first 30 seconds, and it continues well past that from there.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101060: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:15:42 PM

Loki's onscreen killcount is at least eight just from his first 30 seconds, and it continues well past that from there.
Nope — he brainwashes a bunch of people and shoots off his staff, but nobody dies on-screen. All of the "deaths" that Fury later talks about Loki causing are from the entire facility collapsing and we see none of those deaths.

I believe the difference is Loki is not a physical threat, he's a manipulator so its okay if he doesn't fight the Avengers directly.
Loki is an Asgardian god — he's physically stronger than every one of the Avengers except for Thor and the Hulk (which, again, are also stronger than Ultron, too). Yes, he's much more of a manipulator...but then again, Ultron is shown as a manipulator, too. He gathers allies and uses them against the Avengers.

I'm just saying that Ultron as Big Scary Robot was never going to work — it's been done to death. But because people saw Quippy Ultron, they assumed he wasn't scary — but he's deathly scary, no matter how many people he does or doesn't kill. He's scary in a way that's completely different from Loki, but is still effective. He's a child who is angry at the world and therefore lashes out at it, becoming more and more unhinged as his plans fail and so goes bigger and grander in his attempts.

If I had to choose my "One Marvellous Moment," this would be it.

Edited by alliterator on Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:20:49 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#101061: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:16:40 PM

Uh, the lady scientist and random SHIELD agents he blasted looked pretty dead.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#101062: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:16:50 PM

[up][up]I mean I'm pretty sure at least a few of the people he hit with his staff died.

Edited by LordVatek on Apr 22nd 2019 at 10:17:00 AM

This song needs more love.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#101063: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:19:18 PM

Oh yeah. He was killing a lot of people when he first showed up.

I almost positive someone kind sorta exploded.

One Strip! One Strip!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#101064: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:27:19 PM

Nope — he brainwashes a bunch of people and shoots off his staff, but nobody dies on-screen. All of the "deaths" that Fury later talks about Loki causing are from the entire facility collapsing and we see none of those deaths.

*Sighhhhhhh...* Watch this scene again from the "please put down the spear" at the 1 minute mark.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:38:00 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101065: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:27:46 PM

Nobody exploded in the opening scene. Watch it. He fires off his staff a bunch of times at people, but nobody definitely dies except for what looks like two people who he hits with knives.

You can see that after he's looking around, everyone is on the floor, but as he's talking, they slowly get up and he starts brainwashing them. Again: even here, he doesn't want to kill them, because he's planning to brainwash them and use them.

[up] I just linked to the scene. Again: the only people who appear to definitely die are the two hit with knives. Everyone else just slowly gets back up and gets brainwashed.

Edited by alliterator on Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:28:31 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#101066: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:30:44 PM

I counted one stabbed by scepter, two hit with knives, lady scientist blasted (and dead when Erik checks on her), plus a group of 3-4 blasted and 2-3 don’t get up again.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#101067: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:33:27 PM

Like Willow said, there's numerous dead and unlikely-to-be-alive, and then five minutes later Loki blows up a jeep and a helicopter. Ultron comparatively caused zero deaths during his first attack, so I feel pretty comfortable with naming Loki as the more deadly threat from the start.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:33:37 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#101068: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:34:42 PM

Yeah. I was wrong about the exploding (though there is a small explosion when Loki shoots one person) but some of those dudes must not only be merely dead, but truly most sincerely dead.

One Strip! One Strip!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101069: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:36:24 PM

"Blasted" doesn't mean "dead." Again: there are those who are blasted and get back up to be brainwashed.

lady scientist blasted (and dead when Erik checks on her)
The lady was behind the computer when the computer was blasted. Also, how do we know she is dead? Erik checks on her, but doesn't say anything about her condition.

then five minutes later Loki blows up a jeep and a helicopter
I thought off-screen deaths don't count?

Again, I'm not trying to point out that Loki isn't scary. He is. But killing people isn't what makes Loki scary — Loki is scary because of his conviction, his total belief that what he's doing is right. He's scary when he's brainwashing people more than killing them and he's scary when he's just staring at the camera.

Ultron is scary is a different way — unlike Loki, Ultron makes up plans on the fly, relying on his allies, because he knows that he can't confront the Avengers head up. (Loki doesn't have that problem because there are no Avengers until the end of the movie.) And as his plans fail, again, he grows more and more unhinged and more and more desperate, which makes him more dangerous (and therefore scarier).

Edited by alliterator on Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:37:16 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#101070: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:38:12 PM

The horror of Ultron comes from the fact that he is Tony Stark's creation gone bad.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#101071: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:40:08 PM

I thought off-screen deaths don't count?

Those aren't offscreen. Offscreen is exposition or plausible chance of no victim.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#101072: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:40:16 PM

The scariest Ultron moment probably is when he's being all friendly and chummy talking to Klaue and suddenly flips into violence because Klaue compares him to Tony Stark and whacks off his arm. And then has this kind of 'whoops, didn't mean to do that!' reaction about it.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#101073: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:41:58 PM

By the way, here is Ultron's first scene. There are two reasons why he doesn't kill anybody:

  1. He is mainly facing off against the Avengers, who are really good at fighting.
  2. When he finally can kill someone (Dr. Cho), he chooses not to. You see that he's going to blast her and then he rethinks and lowers the repulsor before being tackled. Because he realizes that he can use her.

Ultron is also objectively terrifying in his first scene, because he's in a broken, janky Iron Man suit that looks like something out of a nightmare.

Edited by alliterator on Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:43:55 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#101074: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:42:27 PM

Also, how do we know she is dead? Erik checks on her, but doesn't say anything about her condition.

She’s bleeding heavily from her head, not moving, and the look on Erik’s face sure seems to suggest she’s dead.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#101075: Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:42:31 PM

Shame Ultron couldn’t maintain that fear throughout the movie.

Poor guy becomes a total chump. Couldn’t take down Cap or Widow.

Edited by slimcoder on Apr 22nd 2019 at 7:43:19 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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