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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#100651: Apr 16th 2019 at 10:10:21 AM

By the way, when I say "Spring, Autumn, and Winter", I meant by Arizona standards, which means "below room temperature at any point in the day" for Spring and Autumn, and "below room temperature all the time" for Winter.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#100652: Apr 16th 2019 at 10:10:58 AM

and I live in England where it never stops raining

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#100654: Apr 16th 2019 at 10:13:50 AM

[up][up] I have visited England. I know that it is a lie! You sometimes get a whole week without rain!

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#100655: Apr 16th 2019 at 10:55:43 AM

Much to my frustration there are still Anti-SJW attacking Captain Marvel; I found a video which was about the Feminism in Avatar so I thought it was safe; turned out the guy wanted to bash Captain Marvel and say Avatar had "done feminism right". Basically his argument was that "making a female character OP isn't feminism, it's just making a female character OP". I can only assume he either missed all the feminist themes in the movie or didn't actually see it to think that was all there was to this movie.

And to add to my irritation, the guy is French. There I thought only Americans had this kind of mentality...

Edited by Theokal3 on Apr 16th 2019 at 7:56:10 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#100656: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:02:22 AM

... Avatar as in blue cats Avatar? Did feminism right????????

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#100657: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:10:21 AM

Please tell me that he meant the animated series and not either of the movies.

Which would be a bad example in and of itself due to it being a TV show, not a movie. There is a huge difference between what you can due in a TV show compared to what you can do in a movie.

And while the main point that having a character with a lot of power doesn't make a character automatically feminist (see The Fifth Element, Supergirl and Avatar (the blue people one) as examples for that) is correct, there is just in general little relation between the power level of a character and the level of feminism in a movie.

All thus said, that's a useless discuss regarding Captain Marvel, since the movie is as feminist as it gets. I still consider it another example of the Avenging feminine, which is my favourite kind of action heroine by a LONG shot.

Male reviewers missing the themes of Captain Marvel seems to be a pretty universal problem, no matter what country. And those attitudes aren't unusual either. I recently experienced more or less the following exchange within my close family.

Daughter: I am thinking of quitting my current job and taking another job offer in a company where I have more opportunities. Father: Yes, you really should do that. It is not a good thing for your career to stay with the same company for too long. It is better to built up a resume. Daughter: Yeah, and I have nowhere to go in this company. All male leadership and all. Father: Oh, that is certainly not about them all being male. Those company structures are just slow to change. Daughter: It really is. They are supporting my male co-workers, but they aren't supporting me. Father: It is certainly not about your gender. Daughter: They told me that it is because "but you are a woman". Father: …I would have switched job directly after that. Daughter: Me too. I just needed one and a half year to find a company which would offer me the opportunities I am looking for.

So, for context, this is a father who was supportive of his daughter having a career and who is pretty proud of her and yet he was basically telling her that she was imagining the fact that her male co-workers were given more opportunities than her even though it was the absolute truth. Because males just don't see the world from the same perspective. (The good news is that her husband has no problems whatsoever to see her perspective)

Counterpoints has actually a good video about how she came to feminism and one of the steps was developing the awareness that the media is dominated by the perspective of straight white males. Because it never occurred to her beforehand that there even WAS a specific perspective.

And I guess that is what happens with Captain Marvel, too. It doesn't even seem to occur to a lot of reviewers that there might be a specific lens under which the movie might have more meaning than they are able to see, even if a female reviewer tries to explain it to them. It is kind of frustrating but also kind of an enlightening experience.

Edited by Swanpride on Apr 16th 2019 at 11:27:55 AM

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#100658: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:17:48 AM

[up][up]No, Avatar: The Last Airbender. Sorry, I should have been more specific^^'

[up]Yep, that one.

Edited by Theokal3 on Apr 16th 2019 at 8:18:12 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#100659: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:21:21 AM

[up][up] Ooooh Supergirl the show?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#100660: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:25:46 AM

[up] No, Supergirl the movie. I can't really comment on the TV show because I have only seen the pilot and tried to watch the first two to three episodes, but to no avail. So I guess there is a chance that it grew out of the pseudofeminism of the pilot episode…but, as I said, it doesn't make much sense to compare TV and movies with each other. Different challenges and all.

Edited by Swanpride on Apr 16th 2019 at 11:26:36 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#100661: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:30:40 AM

So I guess there is a chance that it grew out of the pseudofeminism of the pilot episode
I did, thankfully. The Arrowverse shows have a lot of problems, but the current season of Supergirl has been excellent.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#100662: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:31:39 AM

I kinda fell out of the Arrowverse cause of scheduling issues, laziness, & time flying.

Hows it going?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#100663: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:43:33 AM

Avatar: The Last Airbender is an example of diplomatic feminism. It had female characters who are powerful but nonthreatening. There's never any question that the powerful male characters outrank and can outfight them.

On the protagonist side, the strongest woman is Toph, who invents a new form of earthbending and knocks Aang around a few times - but he's always expected to surpass her, and she has nothing that can compete with the Avatar State anyway.

For the antagonists, there's Azula, who is formidable but plays second-fiddle to her father Ozai. The show does throw feminists a bone in the finale by centering one of the two climactic showdowns around Azula and Katara fighting. However, this only happens after Zuko and Azula's fight concludes, and they're very careful to assert that Zuko is stronger than Azula before having her cheapshot him out of the fight by Damseling at-the-time non-combatant Katara.

Women in Avatar are allowed to be powerful, but only with asterisks attached.

The Legend of Korra did follow up on Avatar by putting a woman in the "Unparalleled awesomest person" role. It was decidedly less well received.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 16th 2019 at 12:44:52 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#100664: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:49:31 AM

... I think that’s a cynical and unfair assessment of ATLA. Aang never learns to metal bend, for instance- that’s all Toph. He’s barely competent at earthbending outside the Avatar state. Aang isn’t a better waterbender than Katara; she is his master. Suki is just as, if not more awesome than Sokka- see the prison break episode. Mai and Ty Lee are incredibly dangerous and competent. Zuko can only match Azula, his genius younger sister, because her mental health is slipping.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 16th 2019 at 11:50:43 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#100665: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:52:04 AM

I also think Korra being not as relativly well-received as to do with reasons beyond a woman being in the "unparalled awesomest person" role.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#100666: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:52:34 AM

Yeah, it's pretty clear Zuko is still far from surpassing Azula in fighting prowess, it's just that their situation has reversed: now he's centered and focused and she's going nuts.

And let us not forget Azula is just as much a victim of Ozai's emotional abuse as Zuko, he's tge biggest reason she snapped like that.

[up]I don't remember there being much in the way of backwash against Korra as a protagonist.

In fact, the biggest problem of the show had is how clearly they never really planned the plotlines ahead, compared to ATLA.

Now, the end where Asami and Korra get together did summon the usual dipshits.

Edited by HailMuffins on Apr 16th 2019 at 3:55:22 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#100667: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:54:57 AM

Never watched it, mostly because I really couldn't deal with the notion of Ang/Katara. Just...no. (in general I HATED how the show wrote romances).

I like The Dragon Prince way better than Avatar, at least so far.

If I want to see a feminist show, I watch Agents of Shield or Cloak and dagger...neither of which actually look like one at the first glance, but they truly are. Agents of Shield because it codes the characters based on abilities instead of gender - Ie there is a scene in which Fitz is all angry about Ward not respecting him because he is "not a field agent" because in the show being a field agent translates to being badass one way or another (and not only are there more female field agents then there are male ones, they also often lead the operation in question).

And Cloak and Dagger, well, the show is just REALLY good in offering layered characters and addressing social issues in general.

But there are certainly versions of feminism which are easier to accept for the male audience than others. Like, no matter how powerful Katara was, her main purpose was always interconnected with Ang. No matter what Toth could do, she was still mostly a supporting character.

Edited by Swanpride on Apr 16th 2019 at 11:58:44 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#100668: Apr 16th 2019 at 11:58:46 AM

Eh I've seen worse MC romances. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#100670: Apr 16th 2019 at 12:01:27 PM

Can't say I see what the big deal is, either.

Better than Korra and Mako, at least, that one never convinced me.

But to bring the thread back to rails: the romances in the MCU, done well? Badly? What's your favorite and why it is Peggy and Steve?

[up]Main Characters.

Edited by HailMuffins on Apr 16th 2019 at 4:02:25 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#100671: Apr 16th 2019 at 12:01:39 PM

[up][up] Main Character.

Edited by slimcoder on Apr 16th 2019 at 12:02:20 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#100672: Apr 16th 2019 at 12:15:47 PM

It's only Steggy because Steggy is the only good romance.

My various fanfics.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#100673: Apr 16th 2019 at 12:17:43 PM

Well, yeah, romances in general tend to be terrible written (I look at you, CW), but that doesn't mean that I can't complain about a bad one.

The MCU is a mixed bag in that regard...some are really great (Fitzsimmons above all, but I also like Steve and Peggy's "romance which never came to be", Bobby and Hunter's volatile relationship and I kind of enjoy Wanda and Vision, maybe exactly because their relationship happens in the background and I don't have to sit through all the usual steps. Honestly, I don't need more than a sense why those characters like each other. And I also enjoy Maggie and Paxton and Clint and Laura, not that there is much to enjoy, but I like to see healthy relationships play out on screen.)

A few are a little bit wonky (like Tony and Pepper). And there are a few I am neutral about. Like. I don't really care if Steve kisses sharon Carter or not.

And there are a few I can't really get behind...mainly Thor and Jane and Bruce and Natasha. Especially Bruce and Natasha. It is easily the worst of the various relationships..

Edited by Swanpride on Apr 16th 2019 at 12:18:01 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#100674: Apr 16th 2019 at 12:33:09 PM

Didn't care for Scott/Hope either. Felt pointless and unfitting, and though the next movie had them break up, I still didn't like that it indicated the relationship intensified offscreen when it had no business existing in the first place. Maggie/Paxton was done well enough though.

Edited by AlleyOop on Apr 16th 2019 at 3:38:46 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#100675: Apr 16th 2019 at 12:44:50 PM

I kinda fell out of the Arrowverse cause of scheduling issues, laziness, & time flying.

Hows it going?

  • Legends of Tomorrow continues to be a delightful breath of fresh air mixed with unending craziness — the last episode somehow mixed a funeral, an exorcism, magic sex dust, and Jane Austen all together.
  • Arrow has gotten better this season, probably since the writers knew it was coming to an end next year. It still has its issues, but it's finally introduced an interesting Big Bad to replace the lame one from last season: Oliver's half-sister Emiko.
  • The Flash is also better than last season, although it still has pacing issues (Cicado should have been defeated mid-season — his story went on way too long), but it's introduced a new compelling storyline about Barry's daughter Nora coming back in time with the help of Eobard Thawne in order to prevent Barry's disappearance.
  • Supergirl has probably seen the most improvement, as last season suffered a lot due to compressed storytelling and nonsensical villainy, but this season has created some very compelling villains with very in-depth backstories, like Agent Liberty. The episode where Lex Luthor meets and befriends Red Daughter (a double of Supergirl found in Communist Kasnia) is also one of the show's very best. (In fact, the show's version of Lex Luthor is fantastic.)

Edited by alliterator on Apr 16th 2019 at 12:45:47 PM


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