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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#99701: Mar 31st 2019 at 9:45:47 PM

There’s also the fact she does have good control of her powers.

She can turn Yon into chunky salsa whenever she wants to after all.

Edited by slimcoder on Mar 31st 2019 at 9:45:55 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#99702: Mar 31st 2019 at 9:51:07 PM

Mostly unrelated but somewhat relevant

Carol Danvers: "My brain said this was faster."

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#99703: Apr 1st 2019 at 12:56:52 AM

To clarify something, when I said that Brie had been right, I didn't mean that men can't pick up on the message, I meant that most of them obviously didn't. And I now that because the majority of male reviewers said something along the line of "the movie isn't even feminist" or "it is just a female hero without any obvious feminist messages"...which is just doubly off the mark. It angered me because I don't see anything wrong with feminist messages in movies, the question is if they are good executed (and in this case, I think the execution is pretty much flawless). And it frustrated me because the message is in a ways pretty on the nose, and while I get my friends not catching onto it, a professional reviewer should have. And even between those who don't say something along the line, they are still often saying things which make it noticeable that they haven't really got it. And when I use this phrase I don't mean that in a "they should have rated the movie higher but they were too dumb to get the oh so smart message" way, I mean it in a "they wouldn't have said that if they had caught onto the message, and that they did makes me wonder if the presence of the message would have made a difference in the rating, one way or another".

A big hint that the reviewer didn't get it is

saying that the movie lacked a proper hand-to-hand battle between Carol and Yon-rogg. No, it didn't, that was the point. The whole "you should control your emotions in combat" line of thought makes me cringe, because Carol isn't just told in the fight scene to control her emotions, she is constantly shut down when she tries to be herself. Don't tell me that males don't joke around before battle to let off some steam. Plus, this is also about Carol being set the task to win a fight without using ALL of her abilities. Who the hell learns fighting with one arm bound behind its back.

I mean, we even had a discussion in the spoiler threat with someone who didn't recognize that "smile for me" thing is a micro-aggression. And may I mention that it is really sad that they put that one in the movie before the whole "she doesn't smile enough" controversy?

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#99704: Apr 1st 2019 at 2:32:15 AM

[up]Yeah, I got that, and frankly I agree. See, that's one of the things that infuriates me the most about Anti-SJW. Early on, I would find them as having kind of a point when, for example, they were criticizing people who were saying it was okay for women to objectify men or that male players enjoyed playing female in video games just so they could control women. But now, they are seriously trying to argue any attempt at delivering a feminist message or ideal of female empowerment is automatically bad and ruining medias.

What's especially laughable is that they are complaining that progressive messages about feminism and diversity and "politic agenda" are somehow "ruining" comic books as if this was something new. I can only guess these guys didn't pay attention to the fact Wonder Woman was quite literally created to be a feminist icon and role model. Or that one of the biggest Marvel heroes is named Captain America and fought nazis. Oh that a lot of superheroes were involved in World War II. Or the whole thing about the Grant Morrisson Animal Man comics being all about a message to protect the animals. Yes, clearly comic books have always been about a mindless Power Fantasy and never with any political or progressive message whatsoever until now.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#99705: Apr 1st 2019 at 2:40:29 AM

At this point it’s gotten that attempting to put in any message to any amount can be considered forcing.

An example would be Far Cry 5. Takes place in the rural fields of Montana where you fight against a religious doomsday cult headed by a white guy who shouts religious rhetoric that has taken over the area.

While there is potential there for inputting whatever kind of message the game itself from what I heard does not actually take advantage of the setting & story potential, opting for a generic “extremism of anything is bad” a,one other things.

Now whenever something states that there’s missed opportunity there a bunch of people will get pissy about forcing messages in as if doing so is automatically a bad thing.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#99706: Apr 1st 2019 at 4:16:38 AM

"Forced diversity" is a myth created to justify sexism and racism. Every movie has an agenda, a concept and an execution. And usually when a movie fails, people rightly claim the concept or the execution. Unless there is a diverse cast or a female main character. Than they get the blame instead of the shitty writing.

Not that you can't blame a movie for an agenda - Ie what makes Olympia "bad" is not concept or execution, but the agenda behind it. But if you talk about forced diversity, you effectively say that more diversity is a bad thing.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#99707: Apr 1st 2019 at 4:23:16 AM

The statement about "controlling her powers" becomes doubly ironic when it's revealed that the Kree were intentionally suppressing Carol's powers from the beginning. "Sure, everything bad that's happened to you is totally our fault, but you shouldn't be so emotional about it." Right, Yon-Rogg.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 1st 2019 at 10:51:30 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#99708: Apr 1st 2019 at 4:35:06 AM

I also love how Yon-Rogg defies her at the end by telling her to come and fight him to prove "she can control her emotion"... while yelling at the top of his lungs and clearly being on a Villainous Breakdown while she is just calmly facing him and waiting for him to finish his speech before casually shooting him. Well, someone is not practicing what he preaches...

Edited by Theokal3 on Apr 1st 2019 at 2:21:51 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#99709: Apr 1st 2019 at 4:48:15 AM

Seriously, this is the MCU thread, and at least one person has said they haven't seen the film yet. Mark the spoilers.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#99710: Apr 1st 2019 at 5:21:35 AM

.... Right. My bad, fixing that right now. Sorry.

Edited by Theokal3 on Apr 1st 2019 at 2:22:10 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#99711: Apr 1st 2019 at 7:32:29 AM

Yeah, I got that, and frankly I agree. See, that's one of the things that infuriates me the most about Anti-SJW. Early on, I would find them as having kind of a point when, for example, they were criticizing people who were saying it was okay for women to objectify men or that male players enjoyed playing female in video games just so they could control women. But now, they are seriously trying to argue any attempt at delivering a feminist message or ideal of female empowerment is automatically bad and ruining medias.

That's how it works with hate groups. Always be wary of anyone trying to provide the "other side of the argument" where disenfranchised minorities are concerned, especially if they play the "Empowered majority is real victim" card.

It all starts with finding the lowest-hanging fruit possible. Somewhere out there, someone has done or said something stupid. That's just inevitable. With every new person who joins a movement, the odds that someone will be a complete idiot at some point increase.

They go out there, they find that, and they hold it up as if it was a core mission statement for the whole movement. And if you can't find something stupid enough, you can always just make something up. Or reinterpret something that someone actually said to sound like the worst possible thing ever. The point is not to provide an actual counterpoint to a real idea. The point is to go "THEY said THAT" as a way of starting a "conversation" about how maybe equal rights is a bad thing.

And then it just snowballs from there. See, you can't open with, "I want to put all left-handed people in concentration camps." You have to start at, "A famous left-handed activist, I don't remember who, said that left-handed people were rare and special. "Special". What are you trying to say, left-handers? See, they think that anyone who's right-handed is dumb and mundane. They said as much themselves. They're the privileged ones, if you really think about it." And then you work your way, piece by piece, to concentration camps.

It's all about the increments. "Please join my hate group, I think we could really make rape culture great again," won't get you anywhere with most people. "Did you know that Brie LarsonHey!  said white men are fundamentally incapable of ever providing adequate film critique? What are your thoughts on that?" is a much easier sales pitch, and it gets your foot in the door to start talking about "other" ways that "men are the real victims of feminism."

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 1st 2019 at 8:37:34 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#99712: Apr 1st 2019 at 7:39:55 AM

And once you have those people outraged, it is very, very hard to convince them that there was never anything to be outraged about in the first place. Because that would mean that they had to admit that they jumped the gun and let himself conned. So you might eventually be able to make they acknowledge that Brie Larson never said that, but they would still say that "she says some stupid shit". And when you asks them what exactly was so stupid about it, they say "she could have worded it better", hence putting the fault on her instead of the people who deliberately misrepresented her point.

That's why I hate it when one of the channels I know don't dabble in that BS use the "she could have worded it better" line. Because the notion that those who wrote the outrage articles about her "misunderstood" is not particularly convincing considering their overall posting history.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#99713: Apr 1st 2019 at 7:44:35 AM

And they're not doing this accidentally. If you actually read the messages they send to each other, it becomes horrifyingly clear that all of that is 100% delibrate. They sell people on idea and make jokes to desensitize people to hatred specifically so they can have them join their hate group.

They're aware it's a hate group, too. As much as people like to say "everyone sees themselves as the good guy", a disgusting amount of Real Life people see themselves as Card Carrying Villains. Some Real Life people really are just evil, know they're evil, and want evil things because they're evil.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#99714: Apr 1st 2019 at 7:50:33 AM

[up] Why is why we need to be more aware and push back around their BS narratives whenever possible instead of using the "she could have done X" line in an attempt to be "fair". There is nothing fair about buying even into a sliver of the narrative they try to sell.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#99715: Apr 1st 2019 at 7:52:53 AM

Life tip 1: People are complicated. They have many facets that can make it difficult to simply peg them into buckets like "Good" and "Evil".

Life tip 2: However, many of the ways that people can be complicated are actually super shitty, and if those facets are shitty enough, it completely overrules anything else about them. Nobody says, "I mean, yeah, he's a serial killer, but you should see his gardening skills!" At least, no one should.

Life tip 3: You know what, just go ahead and peg those people into the "Evil" bucket.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#99716: Apr 1st 2019 at 7:54:41 AM

Speaking of the same movie, but from another aspect.

From the beginning I suspected that Talos was a good guy (or at least an anti-villain), for one simple reason.

Talos was the underdog.

That is to say, he was the leader of a small rebel group against a great galactic empire.

I am aware that the movies have had Villainous Underdog in the past (Like Loki or Zemo), but the case of Talos made me suspicious.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Apr 1st 2019 at 7:58:29 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#99717: Apr 1st 2019 at 7:55:26 AM

The really dumb thing is that they've picked such a ... trivial... thing to fixate on. It really is a mindset in which absolutely no progressive messages or symbols can be allowed to exist whatsoever, no matter how ridiculous the effort to discredit them makes them look.

[up] Good point, although we've been conditioned by years and years of science fiction that the sneaky shapeshifters are always the bad guys. Also, the opening does a very clever job of making it seem as if the Kree are fighting some kind of intractable, asymmetric war against a foe that's one slip-up away from tearing down their civilization.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 1st 2019 at 10:58:21 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#99718: Apr 1st 2019 at 7:58:15 AM

That’s a feature, not a bug.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#99719: Apr 1st 2019 at 8:10:22 AM

The more trivial it is, the easier is it to stroke the outrage. Because the truly important things are usually quite complicated, hence it is way more difficult to get people invested in them.

Plus, if the outrage is about something trivial, you can always claim innocence, honest concerns and accuse those who call you out about making a big deal over something not that important. Meanwhile they happily prepare the minds of their users for more alt-right talking points.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#99720: Apr 1st 2019 at 8:40:07 AM

Yes, it cannot be overstated how much I loved the plot point about the Skrulls being a persecuted people instead of an equally-sinister imperial force. I was not prepared for Talos to be a decent man just trying to protect his refugee civilization from an overbearing imperialist nation that will not rest until they are subjugated or exterminated. But I am so glad that he was.

Captain Marvel has a lot to say about the plight of the underprivileged. It saturates the film. In a sense, Carol's journey is the story of a person taken in by privilege and mobilized by propaganda, learning to see the world through different eyes - eyes taken from her when she, herself, was unknowingly subjugated and told through propaganda that she should be honored to serve her masters.

She's basically Space Moses.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 1st 2019 at 9:42:10 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#99721: Apr 1st 2019 at 9:10:16 AM

If Moses wasn't originally Jewish and was, like, Chinese or something, than yeah sure.

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#99722: Apr 1st 2019 at 9:53:16 AM

But remember, the movie doesn't have politics according to people who was not really paying attention when they watched the movie

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#99723: Apr 1st 2019 at 10:42:48 AM

And they're not doing this accidentally. If you actually read the messages they send to each other, it becomes horrifyingly clear that all of that is 100% delibrate. They sell people on idea and make jokes to desensitize people to hatred specifically so they can have them join their hate group.

Wait a minute, how do you know about the message they send to each other? Wouldn't they send that stuff in private?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#99724: Apr 1st 2019 at 10:44:11 AM

they dont mean private messages

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#99725: Apr 1st 2019 at 10:50:48 AM

[up]I know, and that's what confused me. Why would these guys send that sort of message publically? Wouldn't that allow everyone to see how hypocritical they are?


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