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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#97151: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:28:33 PM

@Figtheer: The problem is, a write can't make a review with nay perspective other than their own, that's what it means when people say "Art is Subjective".

If a reader decides to disregard its review based on what bias the critic has shown, then fair enough, I ignore Yatzhee almost all the time he talks about JRP Gs, but that doesn't make his perspective any less relevant, because the more diverse views are brought to the table, the more rich the debate will be.

As Roger Ebert said: the job of the critic is not to evaluate the movie, but merely to show the reader whether that movie will be of interest to them.

And that, I feel, is the root of the problem here: people still look to reviews and critics as a way to validate their opinions rather than a third-party stating theirs.

That's why I agree with the point Larson was trying to make: there needs to be more diverse voices.

Edited by HailMuffins on Feb 27th 2019 at 5:30:50 PM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#97152: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:29:08 PM

See, the problem with Cap is I conflate the two. 616 Cap also isn’t a racist that hates the French. Also Chavez is a Jerkass in everything I’ve seen her in.

Edited by Beatman1 on Feb 27th 2019 at 3:30:03 PM

lvthn13 Since: Dec, 2009
#97153: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:30:51 PM

I have no problem with a movie, book, etc, not being "for me". Most aren't, most forms of entertainment are marketed to someone other than a person with my specific interests, which is true of probably everyone everywhere. Who cares, even a little?

Seriously, my actual problem is that I don't feel like the decision of which movie we'll watch together resulting in any discussion about politics. If you're not sick to death of it yet, wait another few decades and you will be, and then you too will just go to the nice "safe" movies that don't waste the rest of your day with bickering that you listen to even if you stay out of it.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#97154: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:32:45 PM

Chavez’s solo made her way too provocative, but other writers since have fixed her. She’s gotten some pretty adorable moments in West Coast Avengers recently.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Feb 27th 2019 at 12:33:56 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#97155: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:33:49 PM

[up][up] I agree with ya. I’m only 21 & I’m already sick to death of this crap.

It’s just not fun.

[up] Man America’s solo was not good.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 27th 2019 at 12:34:20 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#97156: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:35:38 PM

[up]Exactly.

The thing is, I’m pretty sure the movie itself won’t be political, but the group that hates the film is making it a point to join politics and the film at the hip to turn off as many people as possible. Add in phrasing issues and you have a nice media crap storm.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#97157: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:37:30 PM

Problem is, when you aren't affected by these problems directly you can just choose to ignore them for a while.

People who are affected don't got that choice: a black man who ignores all the news and discussions of hate crimes in America is still at risk of being shot to death by a cop because he fell asleep in a drive-in. (that actually happened, mind)

That's why these discussion need to keep going regardless of how "sick" of them everyone is: the problem, simply, hasn't been solved yet.

Edited by HailMuffins on Feb 27th 2019 at 5:38:16 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#97158: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:39:15 PM

... asking people who have been excluded from the conversation to shut up because it’s exhausting for you is incredibly selfish and self-centered.

It’s not their fault that making minor requests for inclusion makes trolls explode. That’s the racist sexist trolls’ fault.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#97159: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:39:40 PM

Nobody cared about the Captain America films being political, and all of them were, and the reason they didn't care is because Chris Evans is a white man. He's also very outspoken and liberal on twitter, but no-one complained because he's a white man. It's nothing but sexism and/or racism, that's all it is.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Feb 27th 2019 at 1:41:25 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#97160: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:41:51 PM

[up][up] Hey that’s not what I’m tired of.

Just the fucking white noise from Youtubers & shit who I know at first glance are full of crap.

[up] Double Standards yawl.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#97161: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:44:21 PM

I just want to point out that there is no such thing as a "political neutral" film. Everything is political, even if the specifics are "thing bad." Captain Marvel is specifically going to be feminist, because that's who the character is — she was originally conceived as a feminist character and when she became a superhero, that was only increased (hell, she was a writer for Woman magazine). The movie is also specifically influenced by writer Kelly Sue DeConnick's run on Captain Marvel that was very feminist (her first story arc was about female pilots who wanted to go to space, but were refused).

So saying that Brie Larson shouldn't make things political when things are already political is silly.

In any case, most of the people who objected to her comments were bad faith actors, people who didn't care what she said because they were going to oppose her and the movie no matter what. Just look at what happened with Mad Max Fury Road or the all female screening of Wonder Woman.

Edited by alliterator on Feb 27th 2019 at 12:51:35 PM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#97162: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:44:25 PM

[up][up]That’s how they discourage viewers. “But the controversy! The controversy! Think about the controversy!” If all you associate a film with is a political agenda, you’ll just go see Alita again or stay home.

Edited by Beatman1 on Feb 27th 2019 at 3:44:38 PM

lvthn13 Since: Dec, 2009
#97163: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:44:47 PM

Well, there you have it. I'm self-centered for not wanting to pay money to hear more politics. Why even try to provide another view, the only thing that matters to single issue wonks is their pet issue.

As for there being no neutral movies - I'm not exactly asking for a high bar here. I'm asking for something that doesn't enrage (irrationally, I will admit) people that I know and care about. In the end, it doesn't matter to me that they're wrong about some things, because they matter more to me than some empty political gesture.

Edited by lvthn13 on Feb 27th 2019 at 12:47:06 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#97164: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:46:50 PM

I will say that I don’t think Larson’s appeal for more reviewers of color is an attempt to deflect criticism of her film. On the contrary, I think she’s requesting for more, from said marginalized reviewers specifically.

Captain Marvel will likely be a good film, but ultimately a movie about how cool a white woman character is. Unless the trailers are really hiding something, men and women of color characters in the film are going to only occupy supporting roles, nearly all without any superpowers. Larson saying she wants to hear more from people who her own film places in a supplemental position only is an invitation for them to go into detail about how they feel this movie placing them in “Number 2 but no higher for now”. Some of their criticism may be mixed or harsh. And Larson and Marvel will be hearing it because they’re the ones who moved said critics to the front seats.

So that’s interesting to me because it tells me Larson is trying to get Marvel and herself to hear more closely what their film does well or poorly in relation to characters of color, so they can have a better idea of what would work in future films. And that’s why film criticism is supposed to do.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Feb 27th 2019 at 12:48:14 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#97165: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:47:20 PM

[up][up]So, why didn't you have a problem with the politics in the Captain America movies, or with Chris Evans being a very outspoken liberal?

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Feb 27th 2019 at 1:47:35 PM

lvthn13 Since: Dec, 2009
#97166: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:49:56 PM

Where have I said that *I* have a problem with Brie Larson or her politics?

Chris Evans didn't stir up a media shitstorm. That's all I ask! I'm well aware that he's liberal as hell, that's fine. If some of my family knew, they probably wouldn't like the Captain America movies as much, but that's not my problem.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97167: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:57:08 PM

Chris Evans didn't stir up a media shitstorm because internet trolls don't go nuts when a white man expresses liberal views. This is not in any way Brie Larson's fault, other than daring to speak her mind to men. And I think you exaggerate the "shitstorm" — literally nobody had a problem with what she said except said trolls.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 27th 2019 at 3:58:53 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#97168: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:59:13 PM

You aren't paying money to hear politics. You're paying money to watch a film. Everything the actors, creatives, and executives say behind the scenes comes for free.

I very, very strongly doubt that the actual movie will have any political hot takes. I doubt that the extent of its feminism will break new ground. I don't even expect it to make a more controversial statement than, "Girls can be heroes too, okay!" which really shouldn't bother anyone because gender politics are not a zero-sum game.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#97169: Feb 27th 2019 at 12:59:30 PM

The trolls really know how to gather.

Dem spawn points.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 27th 2019 at 1:00:19 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#97170: Feb 27th 2019 at 1:02:33 PM

[up][up]That’s my argument, that and “trolls will keep hammering the political argument away to forcibly make it a political issue and otherwise turn off people sick of media bombardment of news.”

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97171: Feb 27th 2019 at 1:03:37 PM

[up] Yep, so if anyone decides not to see the film because they're "sick of the political environment around it", just know that you've let the trolls win.

[down] If one's "friends and family" are going to have a problem with one seeing a film because they are outraged that it has a feminist message, I think one may need to pick better friends.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 27th 2019 at 4:05:07 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#97172: Feb 27th 2019 at 1:03:45 PM

As for there being no neutral movies - I'm not exactly asking for a high bar here. I'm asking for something that doesn't enrage (irrationally, I will admit) people that I know and care about.
Everything is going to enrage someone. It's not possible to make a movie that will please everyone, so why try? Some people will hate it for the mere fact that a strong woman is the lead. Why should the movie cater to people whose opinions are like that?

Well, there you have it. I'm self-centered for not wanting to pay money to hear more politics.
I don't think you are understanding what the word "politics" means. It's not "Republican/Democrat/Trump/etc" — it's "issues pertaining to how people live and work." That is political.

Edited by alliterator on Feb 27th 2019 at 1:04:09 AM

lvthn13 Since: Dec, 2009
#97173: Feb 27th 2019 at 1:04:54 PM

Well, I can't answer everyone. In the end I will do what I do, all I wanted to do is share the view of an old guy who spends money based on what provides the least irritation. I don't expect everyone to really care.

Lunch is about over, so I leave with this: when I say "neutral" entertainment, isn't really not so complicated. Modern Family meets the standard, despite obviously having very liberal leanings. My straight-ticket Republican, church-every-Sunday mom loves Modern Family. It doesn't shove anything down her throat and the actors don't make public statements that piss her off.

Modern Family is the reason my mom can now know that some of her family members are gay or bisexual, because it said something without beating her to death with it. The conversations that came from it are good ones, not arguments.

It's true, Captain Marvel probably will not have (much) politics in the movie itself, and Larson's comments only trickled out so far. My comment has been that if this is a sign of things to come, then I will likely bail sooner or later, whenever it hits critical mass that conversations become unavoidable, or some agenda becomes too anvilicious. That's all!

PS - Fighteer, it's a little presumptuous to imply that I need to get better relatives, isn't it?

Edited by lvthn13 on Feb 27th 2019 at 1:07:26 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#97174: Feb 27th 2019 at 1:04:55 PM

... so you’re blaming Larson for “stirring up a shitstorm” because sexists are freaking out at her making a relatively mild request for more diverse interviewers?

Modern Family is very milquetoast, I’ll give you that. You might recommend One Day at a Time or Brooklyn 99; they’re not “anvilicious” and they’re both very funny.

Edited by wisewillow on Feb 27th 2019 at 4:06:20 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#97175: Feb 27th 2019 at 1:06:59 PM

Yeah what evidence do we have to suggest that Captain Marvel is going to have any kind of big political statements besides "having a female superhero"? Larson responding to sexist reactions against the film or requesting a more diverse pool of journalists does not necessarily imply the film's content will be full of hot takes.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Feb 27th 2019 at 5:08:35 AM


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