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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Within the context of Superman: The Movie, I think we are supposed to accept that Lex Luthor's plan to get rich by turning worthless desert real estate into prized beachfront real estate would have worked, had Superman not intervened. Yes, it's a silly idea, but it's a silly movie where silly ideas often work.
Edited by RavenWilder on Feb 6th 2019 at 10:13:31 AM
I'm sick and tired of the debate about Thanos being right or not. My personal take is that the film makes the case for Thanos being wrong regardless via having us witness the direct aftermath of his actions every time (namely, as we see all those heroes who helped mankind save annihilation a few hundred times collapsing into dust).
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Even if it didn't have heroic characters fighting him to their last breath throughout the whole story (or Gamora's challenging him in general), Infinity War does a lot to show how horrible it is that someone like him exists in the universe and the depths of how terrible ans senseless the tragedy he inflicts is on the characters we follow.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 6th 2019 at 10:31:26 AM
But we're not discussing whether Thanos was morally right or wrong. We're discussing whether Thanos was factually right or wrong.
He states that worlds across the universe are in danger because of overpopulation, and that the Snap will eliminate that danger. The question here is whether those statements are meant to be seen as accurate within the context of the MCU.
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You're still advocating for telling, rather than showing. And in this case, I can't think of many good examples where a film has needed to tell us that the villain's plan can't work for it to matter in regards to whather the hero needs to stop that plan.
So what if he has a point? Not every villain needs to be completely two dimensional. The movie establishes that he's a monster who needs to be stopped regardless of whether or not he does, and so it establishes that regardless of what the contexts of his actions might be, he doesn't deserve to have his goals succeed. Which is why the fact that his goals do succeed is a tragedy.
I don't know if I can advocate subpar writing just because it would keep some people from leather pantsing him: writers who don't let the movie progress or its themes speak for themselves naturally and instead feel they need to handhold the viewer through what they're supposed to think tend to be a weakness, not a strength.
And even given all of that, keep in mind that this is a two parter.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 6th 2019 at 10:48:47 AM
On the other hand, this is thannos movie, he is the "heroe" and they barely explain their heroism aside of "I do what is right" in some vaguely concept of good, we never explore that much cap or tony concept og goodness, except maybe in civil war, the same with thanos.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"He is a well-intentioned extremist, by definition. He wants to prevent extinction of civilization across the universe (a noble goal) by committing the greatest act of terror ever seen on a cosmic scale (a very extreme way to go about it).
Being a well-intentioned extremist is not a good thing, though. Thanos is a villain. He's perhaps more relatable than other villains, and more emotionally open, but he is very clearly presented as a villain. The never pretends otherwise.
As for whether or not Thanos has a point, that only matters if the heroes don't have a stronger counterpoint. They do. The movie spends a lot of time showing the grief that Thanos' plan causes to everyone, even Thanos himself. It spends a lot of time showing the grief caused by other characters' sacrifices or almost-sacrifices. It's screaming "This isn't worth it!" as loudly as possible without actually saying that phrase out loud, because subtlety is good.
In-universe, I don't think Thanos is supposed to be factually wrong. There are real-world reasons why he should be, but I think we're supposed to accept that within the workings of the MCU, his plan really is functional for his specific goal of fending off cosmic extinction.
Edited by MileRun on Feb 6th 2019 at 10:51:33 AM
Man, imagine if there was a sequel to Infinity War that was filmed at the same time, expanded upon the ramifications of Thanos' plan, and actually detailed whether or not it would actually work.
But sadly, we live in a world where every film exists in a vacuum.
Edited by chasemaddigan on Feb 6th 2019 at 1:56:30 PM
My issue with the overpopulation angle is he's never actually validated in that aside from his own word. Perhaps it's because I tend to look at films at a very Doylist angle but it comes off to me as a not very successful attempt to give him an understandable motive for his actions instead of For the Evulz or Ax-Crazy, because writers know that making him a Well-Intentioned Extremist is the easiest way to convince audiences that he's not a Card-Carrying Villain, no matter how silly the intention is.
At the same time, while they succeeded at making him come off as well-intentioned, they clearly didn't value making his cause convincingly worthwhile, because it really isn't. That to me says a lot about whether his point is to be taken worth seriously or not, because my impression was that the directors don't seem to think it is. If someone in the audience still wants to think Thanos had too much of a point then that's their issue/fault, not the directors'.
Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 6th 2019 at 2:02:08 PM
I'm really getting tired of this discussion too. It SHOULDN'T BE NECESSARY to call out Thanos on his plan! No sane person who is legally allowed to watch this film will ever be like "Gee, that is a great and logical plan, why don't WE do that to ourselves?"
Maybe racists or social darwinists will think that way, but those people can't be convinced by anything meaningless such as economics either way.
So, why the hell bother? Totally on Fighteer's side on that one. It's not necessary, it's boring, it's forced.
Edited by Forenperser on Feb 6th 2019 at 9:25:17 PM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianAnd once again, those people will sure as hell not be convinced that their ideology is wrong by a throw-away line in a fucking SUPERHERO MOVIE. Just as much as a superhero movie isn't going to push certain people into this line of thinking.
You give these movies way too much credit in terms of influencing people.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianAlso been there, done that, don't recommend, never drinking during a movie anymore.
Edited by HailMuffins on Feb 6th 2019 at 5:44:08 PM
Hell, again, I'm not even saying you need a lecture or long speech — you just need one person to say one line refuting his ideology. Hell, The Avengers did just that:
- Loki: Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It is the unspoken truth of humanity that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for power. For identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel.
Old German Man: [stands up] Not to men like you.
Loki: [smirking] There are no men like me.
Old German Man: There are always men like you.
A short, simple scene, but it's powerful because it refutes his entire ideology. This is why I think the first Avengers is better than Infinity War.
Edited by alliterator on Feb 6th 2019 at 1:06:43 AM
