TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#96401: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:07:01 AM

Okay so lets put in an "As You Know" in every movie just so kids can tell the difference between right & wrong.
Once again, thanks for the Straw Man argument. I know I'm making good points when the only counter argument has nothing to do with my actual argument. Also, I did say that a single line would suffice again.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#96402: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:12:01 AM

That is what your arguement is at its core though.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#96403: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:12:34 AM

Within the context of Superman: The Movie, I think we are supposed to accept that Lex Luthor's plan to get rich by turning worthless desert real estate into prized beachfront real estate would have worked, had Superman not intervened. Yes, it's a silly idea, but it's a silly movie where silly ideas often work.

Edited by RavenWilder on Feb 6th 2019 at 10:13:31 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#96404: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:15:54 AM

That is what your argument is at its core though.
No, it isn't. I don't want to lecture anyone, I want people to understand that Thanos is wrong, not just for moral reasons, but for practical reasons, too. People don't have to be lectured about Malthusian whatevers, they just have to hear someone say, "You're wrong, your actions will only make things worse."

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#96405: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:19:10 AM

I'm sick and tired of the debate about Thanos being right or not. My personal take is that the film makes the case for Thanos being wrong regardless via having us witness the direct aftermath of his actions every time (namely, as we see all those heroes who helped mankind save annihilation a few hundred times collapsing into dust).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#96406: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:31:02 AM

Even if it didn't have heroic characters fighting him to their last breath throughout the whole story (or Gamora's challenging him in general), Infinity War does a lot to show how horrible it is that someone like him exists in the universe and the depths of how terrible ans senseless the tragedy he inflicts is on the characters we follow.

We don't need someone to tell it to his face that he's a monster for it to be evident, and we don't need someone to say it outright for the hypocrisy of his actions to be clear.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 6th 2019 at 10:31:26 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#96407: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:37:37 AM

We don't need someone to tell it to his face that he's a monster for it to be evident, and we don't need someone to say it outright for the hypocrisy of his actions to be clear.
We don't need someone to point out that he's a monster, but we do need someone to point out that his goal is flawed. Or else people will assume him to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist with a point.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#96408: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:41:24 AM

But we're not discussing whether Thanos was morally right or wrong. We're discussing whether Thanos was factually right or wrong.

He states that worlds across the universe are in danger because of overpopulation, and that the Snap will eliminate that danger. The question here is whether those statements are meant to be seen as accurate within the context of the MCU.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#96409: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:45:26 AM

[up][up] You're still advocating for telling, rather than showing. And in this case, I can't think of many good examples where a film has needed to tell us that the villain's plan can't work for it to matter in regards to whather the hero needs to stop that plan.

So what if he has a point? Not every villain needs to be completely two dimensional. The movie establishes that he's a monster who needs to be stopped regardless of whether or not he does, and so it establishes that regardless of what the contexts of his actions might be, he doesn't deserve to have his goals succeed. Which is why the fact that his goals do succeed is a tragedy.

I don't know if I can advocate subpar writing just because it would keep some people from leather pantsing him: writers who don't let the movie progress or its themes speak for themselves naturally and instead feel they need to handhold the viewer through what they're supposed to think tend to be a weakness, not a strength.

And even given all of that, keep in mind that this is a two parter.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 6th 2019 at 10:48:47 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#96410: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:47:52 AM

On the other hand, this is thannos movie, he is the "heroe" and they barely explain their heroism aside of "I do what is right" in some vaguely concept of good, we never explore that much cap or tony concept og goodness, except maybe in civil war, the same with thanos.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#96411: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:49:22 AM

He is a well-intentioned extremist, by definition. He wants to prevent extinction of civilization across the universe (a noble goal) by committing the greatest act of terror ever seen on a cosmic scale (a very extreme way to go about it).

Being a well-intentioned extremist is not a good thing, though. Thanos is a villain. He's perhaps more relatable than other villains, and more emotionally open, but he is very clearly presented as a villain. The never pretends otherwise.

As for whether or not Thanos has a point, that only matters if the heroes don't have a stronger counterpoint. They do. The movie spends a lot of time showing the grief that Thanos' plan causes to everyone, even Thanos himself. It spends a lot of time showing the grief caused by other characters' sacrifices or almost-sacrifices. It's screaming "This isn't worth it!" as loudly as possible without actually saying that phrase out loud, because subtlety is good.

He states that worlds across the universe are in danger because of overpopulation, and that the Snap will eliminate that danger. The question here is whether those statements are meant to be seen as accurate within the context of the MCU.

In-universe, I don't think Thanos is supposed to be factually wrong. There are real-world reasons why he should be, but I think we're supposed to accept that within the workings of the MCU, his plan really is functional for his specific goal of fending off cosmic extinction.

Edited by MileRun on Feb 6th 2019 at 10:51:33 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#96412: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:52:50 AM

You're still advocating for telling, rather than showing.
All of dialogue is telling, so what? People in films still talk to each other.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#96413: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:55:46 AM

Man, imagine if there was a sequel to Infinity War that was filmed at the same time, expanded upon the ramifications of Thanos' plan, and actually detailed whether or not it would actually work.

But sadly, we live in a world where every film exists in a vacuum. sad

Edited by chasemaddigan on Feb 6th 2019 at 1:56:30 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#96414: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:57:09 AM

As for whether or not Thanos has a point, that only matters if the heroes don't have a stronger counterpoint. They do. The movie spends a lot of time showing the grief that Thanos' plan causes to everyone, even Thanos himself. It spends a lot of time showing the grief caused by other characters' sacrifices or almost-sacrifices. It's screaming "This isn't worth it!" as loudly as possible without actually saying that phrase out loud, because subtlety is good.

[awesome] [awesome]

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#96415: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:57:29 AM

I'd call it to Infinity War 2: To Infinity and beyond!

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#96416: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:58:02 AM

My issue with the overpopulation angle is he's never actually validated in that aside from his own word. Perhaps it's because I tend to look at films at a very Doylist angle but it comes off to me as a not very successful attempt to give him an understandable motive for his actions instead of For the Evulz or Ax-Crazy, because writers know that making him a Well-Intentioned Extremist is the easiest way to convince audiences that he's not a Card-Carrying Villain, no matter how silly the intention is.

At the same time, while they succeeded at making him come off as well-intentioned, they clearly didn't value making his cause convincingly worthwhile, because it really isn't. That to me says a lot about whether his point is to be taken worth seriously or not, because my impression was that the directors don't seem to think it is. If someone in the audience still wants to think Thanos had too much of a point then that's their issue/fault, not the directors'.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 6th 2019 at 2:02:08 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#96417: Feb 6th 2019 at 11:57:17 AM

The whole issue of Malthusian economics and why it is a flawed concept is way too complex to put it into a single sentences. And I don't think that it is necessary anyway. Those who care have something to discuss, those who don't should get that Thanos is mad.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#96418: Feb 6th 2019 at 12:24:58 PM

I'm really getting tired of this discussion too. It SHOULDN'T BE NECESSARY to call out Thanos on his plan! No sane person who is legally allowed to watch this film will ever be like "Gee, that is a great and logical plan, why don't WE do that to ourselves?"

Maybe racists or social darwinists will think that way, but those people can't be convinced by anything meaningless such as economics either way.

So, why the hell bother? Totally on Fighteer's side on that one. It's not necessary, it's boring, it's forced.

Edited by Forenperser on Feb 6th 2019 at 9:25:17 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#96419: Feb 6th 2019 at 12:31:06 PM

It SHOULDN'T BE NECESSARY to call out Thanos on his plan! No sane person who is legally allowed to watch this film will ever be like "Gee, that is a great and logical plan, why don't WE do that to ourselves?"
And yet, there are totally sane people who believe in a Malthusian catastrophe and will find Thanos's plan morally wrong, but logically right. Saying that only "insane" people will believe it is a No True Scotsman fallacy.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#96420: Feb 6th 2019 at 12:40:15 PM

And once again, those people will sure as hell not be convinced that their ideology is wrong by a throw-away line in a fucking SUPERHERO MOVIE. Just as much as a superhero movie isn't going to push certain people into this line of thinking.

You give these movies way too much credit in terms of influencing people.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#96421: Feb 6th 2019 at 12:40:31 PM

Apperently, in test screening people refused to take bathroom breaks despite the movie currently being more than 3 hours long. Good sign.

Also been there, done that, don't recommend, never drinking during a movie anymore.

Edited by HailMuffins on Feb 6th 2019 at 5:44:08 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#96422: Feb 6th 2019 at 12:42:24 PM

That doesn't work anyway though.

Found myself having to go even if I never drunk anything.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 6th 2019 at 12:42:49 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#96423: Feb 6th 2019 at 12:42:59 PM

> Also been there, done that, don't recommend, never drinking during a movie anything anymore.

I did the same thing when I saw Lord of the rings,also three hours running is surprising

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#96424: Feb 6th 2019 at 12:45:06 PM

They're still cutting stuff, it's one of the reasons test screening is a thing, after all.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#96425: Feb 6th 2019 at 1:05:20 PM

And once again, those people will sure as hell not be convinced that their ideology is wrong by a throw-away line in a fucking SUPERHERO MOVIE.
It's not about proving their ideology wrong, it's about not reinforcing their belief. If a movie presents a racist belief, but never has anyone object to it, there's an issue with that. Sure, you could say, "Well, only racists will believe that" but you still have a film that gives those beliefs a toehold.

Hell, again, I'm not even saying you need a lecture or long speech — you just need one person to say one line refuting his ideology. Hell, The Avengers did just that:

Loki: Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It is the unspoken truth of humanity that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for power. For identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel.
Old German Man: [stands up] Not to men like you.
Loki: [smirking] There are no men like me.
Old German Man: There are always men like you.

A short, simple scene, but it's powerful because it refutes his entire ideology. This is why I think the first Avengers is better than Infinity War.

Edited by alliterator on Feb 6th 2019 at 1:06:43 AM


Total posts: 186,763
Top