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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96376: Feb 6th 2019 at 7:21:04 AM

Consider how much time the heroes have to prepare a defense: barely hours. Heck, the only person who ever explicitly states what Thanos' goal is on-screen is Gamora, and the only ones who hear about it are the Guardians and Thor. Well, I suppose they hear it from Thanos' mouth directly in the ten seconds prior to engaging him on Titan.

The point is that all most of the heroes know is that there's this super powerful dude coming to get the Infinity Stones, and he's going to use them to commit genocide if he gets them all. As far as they're concerned, there's no time, nor point, to engaging him in debate over the subject.

Heck, none of the folks who are left on Earth have the slightest idea what Thanos is going to do with the Stones, just that he wants them. Once Thor, Rocket, and Groot arrive, that changes a little, but Thor doesn't really have the luxury of calling a time-out during the battle of Wakanda to brief everyone in on the threat.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 6th 2019 at 10:23:08 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#96377: Feb 6th 2019 at 8:39:34 AM

Since no one contradicted Thanos's claim that killing half the universe would prevent the devastating collapse of civilizations, I took it to be factually accurate.

Sure, based on knowledge of how this sort of thing works in real life, we can say it wouldn't work. We can also say, based on our knowledge of real world physics, that Ant-Man's suit or Captain America's shield shouldn't work, but within this fictional universe they clearly do. I saw Thanos's Malthusian motivations as simply being another example of the MCU's not-remotely-realistic science.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96378: Feb 6th 2019 at 8:52:31 AM

Why would you take Thanos' word at anything? He obviously believes what he's saying, but we wouldn't give any other villain the benefit of the doubt in their motivations without thinking about it, would we? Malekith and Hela clearly believe their own press, but that doesn't mean we're supposed to blindly nod our heads along with them like sheep until Thor tells us otherwise.

No, the point in the narrative where the most doubt should occur is when Thanos is talking with Gamora on his ship. He tells her that her people are living in a paradise after he killed half of them. That is the point of moral ambiguity. That is when the theme of sacrificing something to get what you want comes into play.

If the heroes are willing to sacrifice to stop Thanos, and Thanos is willing to sacrifice to achieve his goals, then which is supposed to be in the right? Well, we get that answer, don't we? Steve says early on that "we don't trade lives". That's the morality of the heroes: it is always unacceptable to sacrifice life to win. Vision's voluntary sacrifice is an exception only in extremis, when Steve is no longer able to debate him.

The real difference is that the people Thanos is "sacrificing" are not dying of their own free will. He is straight-up murdering them. That's why he is the villain: you don't get to argue in a court of law that you should be acquitted of murder because it hurt you as much as it hurt your victims. Now, if he went to a planet and asked for volunteers to commit suicide so that the greater portion would be saved, leaving it as a truly free choice, then it would be pretty awful but at least it wouldn't be murder.

Thanos is the villain because he violates the freedom of his victims to choose their own fate.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 6th 2019 at 11:54:01 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#96379: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:02:03 AM

Why would you take Thanos' word at anything?
Because, for all of Thanos's bad qualities, he never lies.

And they don't need a Power Point Presentation to refute his plan, either. All it takes is a single line, something like, "You know your plan won't work, you just don't care."

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#96380: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:04:42 AM

If it’s just that line, then actions are worth the same.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96381: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:05:42 AM

[up][up]Does Hela ever lie? I hadn't noticed if so.

Anyway, I feel like you're focusing on the wrong thing. The heroes aren't offering an economics lesson on why Thanos' plan is fundamentally flawed. They oppose the killing of half of the people in the universe. That's something you can do without much fear of being on the wrong side, morally speaking.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 6th 2019 at 12:06:08 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#96382: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:07:34 AM

In my case I cant take thanos as empathic ether and in some way I kinda feel the movie is a little bit manipulative because it focus more in thanos angst and the expecting he can feel something to make us seen him as sad to some extent.

For me it dosent really help is plan is reaaaaally stupid, I mean I can see loki rationalization, killmonger and hell even red skull, they go to point a to point b and awfull it is you can get it....but thanos?.....meeeeeeh.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#96383: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:07:48 AM

Also, Thanos doesn't care about preserving civilization, but rather preventing extinction?

I mean, if killing half the population in Titan had collapsed their civilization, but they would still be alive, I can totally see him calling it a win.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#96384: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:12:20 AM

[up][up] None of them have any points.

Their plans were all stupid one way or the other, Thanos is not worse than them.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#96385: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:17:47 AM

Thanos never lies? I am not sure if the dwarves would agree there….

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#96386: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:18:23 AM

The heroes aren't offering an economics lesson on why Thanos' plan is fundamentally flawed. They oppose the killing of half of the people in the universe.
Yes, they oppose him for moral reasons. But, again, there are plenty of people for whom moral reasons aren't enough — for instance, what's morality in the face of extinction?

Thanos never lies? I am not sure if the dwarves would agree there….
I looked up the actual dialogue and Thanos never actually states that he wouldn't kill the dwarves. Eitra says, "Three hundred dwarfs lived on this ring. I thought if I did what he asked, they'd be safe. I made what he wanted. A device capable of harnessing the power of the stones. And he killed everyone anyway, all except me. "Your life is yours", he said. "But your hands... your hands are mine alone.""

Edited by alliterator on Feb 6th 2019 at 9:20:20 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96387: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:21:24 AM

there are plenty of people for whom moral reasons aren't enough — for instance, what's morality in the face of extinction?

So, you want a two-and-a-half hour action film to add ten minutes to its runtime for a lecture on Malthusian economics because you think some impressionable pre-teens might come away with the belief that genocide is good? Wake me up when we get to the fight scenes, yo.

This isn't fucking Aesop's Fables.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 6th 2019 at 12:22:12 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#96388: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:33:01 AM

[up][up] So what? Those are semantic games.

Thanos might like to think of himself as principled, but as Gamora herself points out, that is just what he wants to think about himself.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#96389: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:37:37 AM

"Their plans were all stupid one way or the other, Thanos is not worse than them. "

Sure as hell it is, Killmonger is just trying to give pain to satifies his, is not a coherent plan but you can see how to get it, is logic is pretty strightfoward "they hit us now is our turn", Loki is more "I fit to rule and I will prove it", selfish and demented it have.

Thannos....want to prove a theory even when said theory is out of the field it need to proof.

For me thannos isnt a monster, he is a dumbass who make sad faces it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#96390: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:39:35 AM

That is not really Loki's motivation. What Loki always wanted was the approval of Odin, and he wanted to be more popular than his brother.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#96391: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:42:44 AM

[up]Sure but stuff like knowing is heritage kinda throw a monkey wrench in that, and whatever stuff happen between Thor and Avengers.

but you can get is motivation, for me thanos is like one those internet theorist who will kill half of the universe to said "I told you so!".

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96392: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:42:51 AM

I don't really think we can fairly compare Loki to the other Marvel villains. As noted, his motivation is fundamentally driven by his feeling of inadequacy compared to his brother and his desire to win the love of others. Also, unlike most of the other villains, lying and deception are basic elements of his character. It's part of what makes him so great: you never know if he's telling the truth or lying, and even if he is telling the truth, you never know if it's honest or in service of some scheme.

Thanos is scary for precisely the opposite reason: he is unfailingly forthright. You always know exactly where you stand with him. He doesn't bother with lies and tricks because he doesn't need to. (The scene with the Reality Stone on Knowhere aside: that is a crafted play to test Gamora's loyalty.)

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 6th 2019 at 12:43:17 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#96393: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:43:30 AM

It's not that no one lays out a lecture on the flaws in Thanos's plan. It's that no one so much as says, "This won't work." Thanos claims what he's doing will prevent civilizations from collapsing across the universe, and no one disputes that, so it seems like we can take that statement as being true.

And, yeah, I do take Hela and Malekith at their word. When Hela talks about having conquered planets and brought home their treasure, or Malekith claims to have been around before the existence of light, I don't see anything in the films that contradicts them. Even though, based on real world knowledge of how the universe works, the idea of a living, physical being existing before light did is utterly absurd, the MCU is a weird enough place that I can accept that's just how things work here unless some character starts claiming otherwise.

Edited by RavenWilder on Feb 6th 2019 at 9:44:04 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#96394: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:47:36 AM

So, you want a two-and-a-half hour action film to add ten minutes to its runtime for a lecture on Malthusian economics because you think some impressionable pre-teens might come away with the belief that genocide is good?
Gee, thanks for making that Straw Man argument, when I already explained that a single line would suffice. And no, it's not "impressionable pre-teens" who think this, it's a lot of people. That's kind of the entire point of the Trolley Problem.

But hey, there's a question: what would you do if you were in a runaway trolley about to kill five people and you could either let it or change the tracks and kill one person?

So what? Those are semantic games.
For it to be semantic, we would have to know what Thanos said. We don't.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96395: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:48:06 AM

and no one disputes that, so it seems like we can take that statement as being true.

Umm, no. That's not how these things work. First, Gamora does challenge Thanos, calling him insane. She doesn't engage him in a lecture about economics because that would be boring, not because she's conceding it.

I will admit that there is a systematic weakness in almost every superhero movie: the heroes almost always oppose the villains for very simple reasons, such as not wanting them to kill people, or take over the world, or steal money, but very rarely does anyone ever address the underlying ethical or moral issues.

When Lex Luthor wants to sink California into the ocean to make a killing on real estate, does Superman ever explicitly say that he's wrong? He calls Luthor a "diseased maniac", but never refutes his economic logic. Wow, I guess we should be expected to think he's got a point.

When Sandman is trying to steal money to help his sick daughter, does Spider-Man suggest that he apply for Medicaid? Wow, I guess we should be expected to think that stealing is okay if you have a sick child.

Infinity War is no different, so why are we treating it differently? Because some edgelords got validated?

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 6th 2019 at 12:52:07 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#96396: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:49:16 AM

In hela I see a reverse thor and loki so to speech: Hela is bloodthristy and a killer who take everything and build asgard in blood only for Odin to take that away for some weird change of heart and that being so much of a coward to hide it, I will be kinda piss about it.....but damn again raganerok barely care about it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#96397: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:51:19 AM

Yes, yes we know you hate Ragnarok & Odin for whatever reasons.

Hela never struck me as needing to lie or manipulate much. She's the classical "Solve every problem with a knife to the throat."

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#96398: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:54:06 AM

[up]Plenty of reason, that is truetongue.

Like I said, Hela is honest because well....why to lie? she can just murder it.

"when everything is a nail, break the hammer and murder people" is pretty much hela in a nutshell.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#96399: Feb 6th 2019 at 9:59:00 AM

When Sandman is trying to steal money to help his sick daughter, does Spider-Man suggest that he apply for Medicaid? Wow, I guess we should be expected to think that stealing is okay if you have a sick child.
You jest, but considering the system in place, why not? If the system is broken, why not break the law in order to achieve something good?

Hell, wasn't that Cap's entire stance in Civil War? They didn't want to obey the law, so they became outlaws. Cap and the rest are literally breaking the law, because they believe the law is unjust.

Thanos just takes that to its extreme: murder is immoral, but in order to save the universe, he needs to kill half of it. For him, it's better than half of the universe live, then all of the universe die.

Edited by alliterator on Feb 6th 2019 at 10:00:21 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#96400: Feb 6th 2019 at 10:01:32 AM

Okay so lets put in an "As You Know" in every movie just so kids can tell the difference between right & wrong.

That's what this has come too.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 6th 2019 at 10:02:11 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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