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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96226: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:01:41 AM

To be clear, it's not just Thanos' "kill half the universe out of some deluded concept of Malthusian economics" plan (not that Thomas Malthus would have been widely read on Titan hundreds of years before his birth, but whatever). That alone wouldn't make him sympathetic. It's the psychological journey that he took to get there that makes it interesting.

He saw the catastrophic overpopulation crisis threatening his homeworld. As someone who felt like an outsider due to his mutation, he no doubt already knew the sting of rejection. But when he came up with an idea for how to solve it and presented that solution, he was cast out, ridiculed. Then he saw his prediction come to pass.

From his point of view, he was absolutely vindicated. Already used to being called mad, this further cemented his belief in his own righteousness against the rest of the universe. He gathered more people to him as disciples and their own fanaticism served to reinforce his certainty, in a positive feedback loop of the sort that we are all familiar with.

Perversely, though, all of this is borne out of a sort of love, as twisted as that may seem. Thanos loved his homeworld and wanted to see it saved. He loves his Children and mourns their sacrifice if they must die in the execution of his plans. He even loves the people he kills: the cognitive dissonance of mass-murder on the worlds he scours causes him to regard his victims as fulfilling a grand purpose in the cosmos, making him all the more certain in his beliefs. He's even witnessed those worlds enter golden ages of prosperity after his actions.

In the time he has on screen, we can see all of this resolve and emotion in him. It's a truly exemplary performance.

My point is that it doesn't matter that his plan is fatally flawed. It matters that he believes in it and that we can understand why he believes in it. It matters that we see the pain that his sacrifices cost him.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 5th 2019 at 12:12:32 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#96227: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:06:07 AM

Also, and I know this joke has been made before, but in the MCU, wouldn't that be Hela?
He's not in love with the Goddess of Death, he's in love with Death itself. Like, the concept which is also, in the Marvel universe, personified as a woman.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#96228: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:10:38 AM

Plus in the MCU Hela isn’t really a goddess with authority over death or the dead (I mean, she had an army of zombies but only because they were hers and alive in her prime), but a warlord who was so good at killing people that they called her that.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#96229: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:14:43 AM

As someone who felt like an outsider due to his mutation, he no doubt already knew the sting of rejection.

That’s not in the movie. That’s only in the comics.

Already used to being called mad, this further cemented his belief in his own righteousness

Not in the movie. Also, speaking as a disabled person, “cripple becomes evil because they get mocked for it” is a tired and repetitive cliche.

He gathered more people to him as disciples and their own fanaticism

Brainwashing child soldiers is not “making disciples” or “their own fanaticism.

Thanos loved his homeworld and wanted to see it saved.

If he did, he would’ve used the Gauntlet to change that. Instead he just killed a ton of people because that’s what he really wants.

He loves his Children and mourns their sacrifice if they must die

Nebula: “Hi.”

He even loves the people he kills

Loki, Heimdall, and 299 dead dwarves: “Hi.”

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Feb 5th 2019 at 9:21:48 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96230: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:16:42 AM

Oi. You are again conflating whether you approve of those actions with whether they represent a well-written villain. You can appreciate a character without having to agree with them. This seems lost on some people.

Even if we cut out the "rejected mutant" bit, which is fair, we still have the "I came up with a solution, was rejected, and (in my own mind) proven right" part of the motivation.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 5th 2019 at 12:17:37 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#96231: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:16:56 AM

[up][up][awesome]

[up]No; he clearly delineated what is in the actual movie versus your interpretation.

Edited by wisewillow on Feb 5th 2019 at 12:17:33 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96232: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:18:46 AM

[up] Cherry-picking bits of my post to argue with is classic bad-faith debate, and I will not be drawn into it. This is why I don't like participating in these topics sometimes. You cheerleading it is not helping.

If you want a circle-jerk in which anyone who disagrees with your point of view is shouted down, you're in the wrong damn forum.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 5th 2019 at 12:20:24 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#96233: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:26:19 AM

@Gaon Man homes I think your right on the money there.

So pretty much Thanos is the most human of us all. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#96234: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:27:12 AM

You are again conflating whether you approve of those actions with whether they represent a well-written villain. You can appreciate a character without having to agree with them.

I don’t approve of Harvey Dent murdering people based on coin flips but I understand better why he did that in The Dark Knight.

All I’m saying is, if the claim is “movie Thanos is so much deeper than comics Thanos”, using his comics backstory on the movie character is pretty self-refuting.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Feb 5th 2019 at 9:27:49 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#96235: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:31:04 AM

Thanos absolutely does sympathize with the people he fights and kills, and he acknowledges that their struggle to save their people by fighting him is noble and just. He just believes that what he's doing absolutely must be done for the greater good. He had little sympathy for Loki because Loki is a failure, we know that he doesn't see that as a worthy trait, just look at Nebula.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96236: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:31:32 AM

[up][up]I never claimed he is deeper. Obviously the comics have way more time to establish backstory and characterization than a film could ever dream of. My claim is that the MCU version of Thanos works better for the film because it involves the introduction of the fewest number of external elements. Thanos' motivation is internally consistent, sympathetic (YMMV, obviously), and does not require a new villain to show up from nowhere to explain it.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 5th 2019 at 12:33:47 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#96237: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:35:21 AM

Death doesn’t have to show up, though. He could be a Death-obsessed fanboy without Death herself ever appearing.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#96238: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:36:10 AM

Well, it also reduces Thanos' agency as a villain to have another more powerful being that he's trying to impress introduced alongside him. It creates ambiguity as to whom we're supposed to regard as the actual threat. Thanos in the MCU is out for himself and nobody else. He is the threat, full stop. I mean, sure, we know there are lots of powerful beings out there, but the Mad Titan is not about to let anybody upstage him in his own film.

What helps with that in the comics is that it's often not quite clear if Lady Death even wants him to be doing this, or if he's just being a creepy stalker, firing up the boom box outside the window of a disinterested cosmic being.

"Annihilation", one of the best stories Thanos ever featured in, made a plot point out of this. Thanos killed people to curry Death's favor, and she shunned him. So he killed more people as a greater tribute, and she shunned him. So he killed yet more people and she shunned him still. By the story's end, he's having a misogynistic breakdown like "What the f*ck do you want from me?!"

And the answer was death. The one true thing, the only thing, Death ever wanted from him was death. Not the death of billions. Not the death of half the universe. Not the extermination of all life, for without life there can be no death. She wanted his death. The only tribute he could give her that truly mattered was to die and be dead.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 5th 2019 at 10:36:44 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#96239: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:36:23 AM

[Obvious Discworld joke goes here]

[up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on Feb 5th 2019 at 5:36:45 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#96241: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:41:29 AM

bone the Grim Reaper

<rimshot>

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#96242: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:41:42 AM

It's a good first step. Death has no interest in the living. If she did, she wouldn't be Death.

Deadpool's faced that same conundrum in the weird f*cked up love triangle he has going on with Thanos and Death. He needs to die if he wants to be with Death, and he can't die, so he and Death will forever be star-crossed.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#96243: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:41:56 AM

For me is death workship make him a larger than life chararter, kinda like how darksaid IS, not just marely a goth looking tyrant but the embodiment of tyrany, with all the horrifying thing it invold.

Thanos a sci fi tyrant who talk about mathuselan is....silly, is painfully and stupidly silly, the kind of thing you will look in the 90 as serious ideas, so it clash in the way it acts.

Because for me is sympathy come from is acting(the actor does really make a good job) adn the fact he dosent have like screaming lunatic, all chararter like that(Stephenwolf, Hela, Ronan,etc) does and he didnt so is taken more seriously.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#96244: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:45:02 AM

I think the reason Deadpool can't die is because Thanos cursed him, no? His Healing Factor merely makes him harder than a cockroach to kill, but not unkillable.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96245: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:45:09 AM

The only tribute he could give her that truly mattered was to die and be dead.

That's cool and tragic and whatnot, but wouldn't it reduce the agency of the Avengers in all of this? If the conflict isn't them trying to beat Thanos (or talk him out of his fanaticism) but Thanos having an existential temper tantrum with Death, then it's hard to see why the heroes are necessary at all.

The setup for Endgame seems to me to be leading into a scenario where Thanos starts to genuinely regret his actions and may even surrender voluntarily at some point. That doesn't work if his original motivation remains unfulfilled.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 5th 2019 at 12:46:40 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#96246: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:49:22 AM

I dunno about surrender voluntarily but I can see him dying and being like "You can reverse this if you want I'm done" which then leads to who should/who wants wield the gauntlet

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#96247: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:49:38 AM

If the conflict isn't them trying to beat Thanos but Thanos having an existential temper tantrum with Death, then it's hard to see why the heroes are necessary at all.
Because his existential temper tantrum still threatens to destroy half the universe.

The setup for Endgame seems to me to be leading into a scenario where Thanos starts to genuinely regret his actions and may even surrender voluntarily at some point.
I highly doubt that will happen.

Edited by alliterator on Feb 5th 2019 at 9:50:07 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#96248: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:54:33 AM

Though by cutting out Adam Warlock, the Avengers no longer feel trivialized.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#96249: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:56:02 AM

A really funny interview with Clark Gregg - spoilers for Agents of Shield in general and season 6 in particular.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#96250: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:56:34 AM

Isn't he supposed to be emerging from a cocoon at some point?

[up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on Feb 5th 2019 at 5:56:52 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server

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