TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#95701: Jan 27th 2019 at 9:51:06 AM

> "A movie about Camilla Conover, the white-as-snow redhead with stretchy powers who fangirls over Captain Marvel"

i don't see whats wrong with an elastigirl movie

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95702: Jan 27th 2019 at 9:51:24 AM

That's not how "Correlation doesn't imply causation" is used and you're being really pedantic, here. This isn't about a causal relationship, it's about the spirit behind the idea. Why are you so determined to say that this is so difficult as to not be worth even trying? What exactly is the point you're trying to make?

Edited by Unsung on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:53:36 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95703: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:03:19 AM

None of them are going to go "these social issues I'm dealing with are all well in good in print, but they cease to matter once these characters leave the comic format."
That's not what I was saying and you know it. I was saying that those who created Kamala Khan didn't create her to combat poor casting decisions, they did it to create a feeling of better inclusivity in comics. The fact that better inclusivity in comics should lead to better inclusivity in film is a bonus.

Why are you so determined to say that this is so difficult as to not be worth even trying?
That's not what I'm saying at all. Perhaps you should actually read my actual posts. Here, in fact, I spelled out my exact argument right here.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:06:19 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#95704: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:10:37 AM

I know what you were saying. My point was that your interpretation focuses on extreme specificity to the point of being pointless, inaccurate and useless in actually understanding what the writers were doing and what the point of the character actually was.

Though Unsung went with "pedantic," which got the point across more concisely

As I said, the writers were trying to overcome poor representation with the creation of the character. Representation is a big thing. Inclusivity is a big thing. It doesn't begin and end with the very specific media that is trying to be inclusive. Being inclusive with comic books doesn't stop with comic books: it doesn't just exist in very specific forms. It's a major issue that involves pretty much all media and expresses itself in many aspects of that media, and people who try to be more inclusive make it their business to be aware of that.

No writer is going to make a character who is intended to combat poor representation and believe that what they're trying to do with the character doesn't apply to representation in all its forms. Tunnel vision to that degree would show itself in the writing in the first place, and they don't live in bubbles besides.

But go ahead, go tell Sana Amanat that her writing or intent behind making the character has no relevance on whether people of her history should be given the same treatment in movies, then tell her that's why they shouldn't bother casting a Pakistani actress in the role.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:22:28 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#95705: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:11:11 AM

They should try to cast a Pakistani-American Muslim actress. I’m willing to bet there’s dozens of girls the right age who love the Kamala Khan comics. The comics weave Kamala’s faith throughout her origin; the Koran is even quoted here and there. There’s very little Muslim representation in American films, beyond terrorists or maybe the sympathetic relative of a terrorist.

Casting a non-Muslim girl should be a last resort.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95706: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:14:36 AM

[up][up][up]The idea of whether or not Kamala Khan was made specifically with casting in mind or not was based on your narrow reading of what Known Unknown said — he was speaking more broadly — you chose to only respond to a few lines with the always-inflammatory "Huh?" that implies a complete dismissal of anything else the person said. It's rude, frankly, and not a conducive to constructive discussion.

And if that linked post is really your actual feeling, I'm not sure what the point you've been trying to make since then is. Saying "I would rather they try and find a Pakistani actress" is not disparaging a non-Pakistani actress except by perhaps the strictest possible definition of the term. And Hollywood doesn't need help coming up with reasons not to try.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 27th 2019 at 5:04:42 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#95707: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:21:27 AM

I too don't think the intent from the post you linked has gotten through much in the rest of your argument.

Not only is no one disparaging non-Pakistani actors or actresses here, but all you've been doing is give excuses for why they shouldn't bother trying to get Pakistani actors and actresses, not arguments for why non-Pakistani actors and actresses shouldn't be ignored.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:24:12 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#95708: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:24:36 AM

I think my above post is a good explanation. No one is demanding other actresses be “ignored,” we’re saying being true to the character is important.

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 27th 2019 at 1:25:14 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95709: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:28:10 AM

I know what you were saying. My point was that your interpretation focuses on extreme specificity to the point of being pointless, inaccurate and useless in actually understanding what the writers were doing and what the point of the character actually was.
I actually don't think you understand what I'm saying: I was responding to a line of reasoning that was extremely narrow by pointing out how extremely narrow it was. Saying "Kamala Khan was created to push back against casting decisions" is too narrow — it wasn't what she was created for, because she was created to combat wider representational problems, not just casting decisions and saying that she was made specifically for casting decisions is incorrect.

But go ahead, go tell Sana Amanat that her writing has no relevance on whether people of her history should be given the same treatment in movies, then tell her that's why they shouldn't bother casting a Pakistani actress in the role.
I feel like you aren't understanding what I'm writing at all, because that wasn't what I was writing at all.

The idea of whether or not Kamala Khan was made specifically with casting in mind or not was based on your narrow reading of what Known Unknown said — he was speaking more broadly
They wrote that all-white casting decisions were "exactly the sort of thing the character of Kamala Khan was made against." Perhaps that was meant to be understood in a broader sense, but it seemed very specific to me. It also struck me as too narrowing of the reason she was created in the first place, which is why I responded.

Not only is no one disparaging non-Pakistani actors or actresses here, but all you've been doing is give excuses for why trying to get Pakistani actors and actresses is unsuitable, not arguments for why non-Pakistani actors and actresses shouldn't be ignored.
If you go all the way back to the original reason for this argument, you'll find someone asking "Don't India and Pakistan share ethnic groups?" and someone responding with a very disparaging comment. Also, I haven't been giving excuses for not finding Pakistani actors, I've been telling people that it's incredibly difficult to find actors who are 1-to-1 with their characters.

For example, in the last page, someone commented that it wouldn't matter if the actor was Muslim as long as they were Pakistani. But right now, wisewillow just stated that the actor had to be Muslim in order to portray Kamala. But what if they are Muslim and Iranian-American, instead of Pakistani-American? What if they are Pakistani-British instead of Pakistani-American? What if they are any number of other variables that don't exactly fit the character of Kamala? Would you still accept the actor in the role or would you reject the casting because you want an exact 1-to-1 match?

My argument was, again, that 1-to-1 matches are extremely difficult, sometimes bordering on impossible, so if you get an almost match (like Kathreen Khavari, who is Muslim and Iranian-American, and voice acts for Kamala), people should be fine with it.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:29:36 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95710: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:29:14 AM

[up][up]Yeah, like wisewillow said, it isn't just about race. The way Muslims are portrayed in the west is a big part of the character, and it would be nice to give the role to someone who was directly impacted by that.

[up]If the line of reasoning you're arguing against is exactly as narrow as it seems, then it feels like I have understood it — it's arguing over semantics for its own sake, and if that's the case, I still really don't see the point in arguing it so hard if you basically agree with the rest of what's being said. It just produces an air of hostility and adds ammunition for the people who are actually opposed to casting an actual Pakistani Muslim for one reason or another.

Also an Iranian and a Pakistani aren't necessarily an almost match — about half of Iranians speak Persian, whereas the national language of Pakistan is Urdu. They share a religion, not an ethnicity. What's okay for the voice acting of a character who mostly speaks English is going to be different than what works in live action.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 27th 2019 at 11:37:46 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#95711: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:35:46 AM

Honestly, we are fighting about nothing here. I think everyone agrees that Marvel should cast its net wide and pick the best option for the role. And if those choices include actresses which happen to be Pakistani Muslima, great, thumbs up. Some here just don't see it as a deal breaker if they end up casting an actress who isn't a Muslima or isn't Pakistani, as long as the actress still fits the role and Kamala Khan herself represents the struggles of a Pakistani Muslima in the US, and as long as the Pakistani actresses got a fair shot at the role.

Is this really worth pages of discussion? Regarding a movie which might not even happen in the first place?

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:36:27 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#95712: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:40:05 AM

Also, I haven't been giving excuses for not finding Pakistani actors, I've been telling people that it's incredibly difficult to find actors who are 1-to-1 with their characters.

It's "incredibly difficult" to find a Pakistani actress in the correct age group?

Either way, if all you're doing now is insisting to people over and over and over again that they don't understand what you say and that you're actually saying something completely different, then maybe what you need to do is explain why what you've been talking about now is relevant to what you meant to say all along.

The fact of the matter is, you haven't been arguing the last few pages about whether India and Pakistan share some ethnic groups. So if that was your point the whole time, you've lost sight of it. If all this time you've been arguing against a single post made pages ago that the rest of the thread has long since moved on from, without even indicating that's what you were doing, that's a problem.

I think this the point where the arguing stops and reassessing, maybe even just plain tabling the discussion, starts.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:40:51 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95713: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:40:06 AM

It just produces an air of hostility and adds ammunition for the people who are actually opposed to casting an actual Pakistani Muslim for one reason or another.
I'm not trying to be hostile and I'm not against a Pakistani-American Muslim getting the role. But the argument I'm making isn't "narrow," because I've seen too many fans get outraged because a specific actors wasn't chosen or because it didn't fit the character on the page. I'm trying to say: temper your expectations. A Pakistani-American Muslim actress would be the best thing, but don't insult the writers/directors/casting people if, instead, the actress is Iranian-American or Pakistani but not Muslim (in fact, I don't think that casting calls can specify a religion — religious discrimination is a big issue in America, so if a casting call seems like it will only accept Muslim actors, it will get a lot of controversy) or something other than the 1-to-1 with Kamala Khan.

I mean, if they cast a Latino actress, sure, protest, but if they are only a little bit off, please don't.

It's "incredibly difficult" to find a Pakistani actress in the correct age group?
Look up all of the Pakistani actress in the age group you want and try finding one that's a) working in America and b) Muslim. You won't find many, that's what I'm saying.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:41:43 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#95714: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:41:46 AM

I mean, if they cast a Latino actress, sure, protest, but if they are only a little bit off, please don't.

I mean, the perception that two distinct countries with distinct histories and cultures sharing some ethnic groups means that they're interchangeable is, itself, the problem being argued against.

In the case of a character whose specific cultural identity is very important to their conception, the studio shouldn't just go for "close enough" when they have the opportunity to do it right.

Look up all of the Pakistani actress in the age group you want and try finding one that's a) working in America and b) Muslim. You won't find many, that's what I'm saying.

Then the internet has got you covered.

Of the ones proposed across those links, I rather like the looks of Syra Shahroze.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:46:52 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95715: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:43:45 AM

[up][up]Nobody has insulted anybody, and you just said: "I was responding to a line of reasoning that was extremely narrow by pointing out how extremely narrow it was."

Edited by Unsung on Jan 27th 2019 at 11:44:14 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95716: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:47:33 AM

Then the internet has got you covered.
Look the first page which you linked and see the actual fancasts. Most of them are 1) out of the age range and 2) not Pakistani. The internet, in fact, doesn't have you covered, because the internet is, like a lot of things, terrible.

Nobody has insulted anybody, and you just said: "I was responding to a line of reasoning that was extremely narrow by pointing out how extremely narrow it was."
Different argument. The narrow argument was about why Kamala was made. The current argument is about the casting of Kamala, which isn't narrow.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:50:10 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#95717: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:49:44 AM

Since when has Hollywood ever cared about age group, such that that matters in regards to casting? 15 year old Spider-Man is played by a twenty something year old. All you need is to look like a teenager.

Only one of those lists includes actresses who aren't Pakistani. The other two have about 17 actresses or models who are Pakistani, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that most of them aren't Pakistani.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:50:45 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95718: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:50:40 AM

Which, again, is what I've been saying. You can't get a 1-to-1 match, so go with something that is close enough.

The other two have about 17 actresses or models who are Pakistani, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that most of them aren't Pakistani.
I only looked at the first page, sorry, but when you are trying to make a point, perhaps don't link to a page that recommends the exact opposite of your argument.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:52:08 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#95719: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:51:23 AM

Except age and ethnicity aren't comparable in this regard. Child acting is something that has a very distinct approach in Hollywood, and few societies in the world have issue with fudging that. They do when it comes to ethnicity.

Likewise, it is a thing that older actors and actresses have more experience and skill than younger ones, because that's how experience actually works. You can't make the same claim with ethnicity.

They should absolutely not throw out the desire to have a Pakistani actress portray the character just because they can't find one who is actually fifteen. That's inane.

To give an extreme comparison: if we were fine with treating ethnicity the same way we did age, blackface would still be a thing.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:53:55 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95720: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:51:31 AM

[up][up][up][up]I wasn't talking about the new argument, hence why I referred to the previous argument.

And again, if you actually think it would be better to have a Pakistani Muslim actress play the part, why are you still going to so much trouble to convince people that it will never happen?

Edited by Unsung on Jan 27th 2019 at 11:52:30 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95721: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:53:13 AM

And again, if you actually think it would be better to have a Pakistani Muslim actress play the part, why are you still going to so much trouble to convince people that it will never happen?
Because I don't want people to go crazy if it doesn't happen. So, again, temper your expectations and if they have one thing wrong, don't insist that they fire the actress and go with a complete 1-to-1 match, because that isn't going to happen.

I've seen fans go crazy and become toxic before. I don't want that to happen with the MCU.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:53:35 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#95722: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:54:31 AM

Edit: Nope, too far. Sorry.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:55:04 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95723: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:54:41 AM

Why do that? Why assume that? Why not just wait and see, or even try and find an actual actress who fits the bill to speculate on?

Edited by Unsung on Jan 27th 2019 at 11:55:35 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#95724: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:56:57 AM

[up][up][up] Then actually address those issues as they happen, rather than trying to claim that that casting is unsuitable in the first place.

The argument against overreacting against non-perfect inclusivity shouldn't be an argument against inclusivity itself.

And if, again, you don't want to be seen as making that argument, then you really need to reassess what you've actually been saying. To paraphrase what I said before, all you've been doing is make excuses for why they shouldn't cast a Pakistani, rather than actually make a case for us not overreacting if they don't.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:59:03 AM

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#95725: Jan 27th 2019 at 11:04:26 AM

Isn't it not exactly legal to ask about religion when casting, anyway? But yes, casting a Pakistani-American actress for Kamala should be the priority. Of course it's relevant for the story that Kamala is Muslim, but her actress doesn't need to be. IMO it's more important that the writers, producers, and/or directors be Muslim (and probably South Asian, because there are a lot of differences culturally between South Asian countries and other countries with Muslim populations) since they can more accurately tailor the movie to reflect those authentic experiences.

TBH, I don't... actually know what we're arguing about, but I just wanted to throw in my $0.02 there. [lol]

When we're done, there won't be anything left.

Total posts: 186,763
Top