Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
That's not how "Correlation doesn't imply causation" is used and you're being really pedantic, here. This isn't about a causal relationship, it's about the spirit behind the idea. Why are you so determined to say that this is so difficult as to not be worth even trying? What exactly is the point you're trying to make?
Edited by Unsung on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:53:36 AM
Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:06:19 AM
I know what you were saying. My point was that your interpretation focuses on extreme specificity to the point of being pointless, inaccurate and useless in actually understanding what the writers were doing and what the point of the character actually was.
Though Unsung went with "pedantic," which got the point across more concisely
As I said, the writers were trying to overcome poor representation with the creation of the character. Representation is a big thing. Inclusivity is a big thing. It doesn't begin and end with the very specific media that is trying to be inclusive. Being inclusive with comic books doesn't stop with comic books: it doesn't just exist in very specific forms. It's a major issue that involves pretty much all media and expresses itself in many aspects of that media, and people who try to be more inclusive make it their business to be aware of that.
No writer is going to make a character who is intended to combat poor representation and believe that what they're trying to do with the character doesn't apply to representation in all its forms. Tunnel vision to that degree would show itself in the writing in the first place, and they don't live in bubbles besides.
But go ahead, go tell Sana Amanat that her writing or intent behind making the character has no relevance on whether people of her history should be given the same treatment in movies, then tell her that's why they shouldn't bother casting a Pakistani actress in the role.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:22:28 AM
They should try to cast a Pakistani-American Muslim actress. I’m willing to bet there’s dozens of girls the right age who love the Kamala Khan comics. The comics weave Kamala’s faith throughout her origin; the Koran is even quoted here and there. There’s very little Muslim representation in American films, beyond terrorists or maybe the sympathetic relative of a terrorist.
Casting a non-Muslim girl should be a last resort.
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The idea of whether or not Kamala Khan was made specifically with casting in mind or not was based on your narrow reading of what Known Unknown said — he was speaking more broadly — you chose to only respond to a few lines with the always-inflammatory "Huh?" that implies a complete dismissal of anything else the person said. It's rude, frankly, and not a conducive to constructive discussion.
And if that linked post is really your actual feeling, I'm not sure what the point you've been trying to make since then is. Saying "I would rather they try and find a Pakistani actress" is not disparaging a non-Pakistani actress except by perhaps the strictest possible definition of the term. And Hollywood doesn't need help coming up with reasons not to try.
Edited by Unsung on Jan 27th 2019 at 5:04:42 AM
I too don't think the intent from the post you linked has gotten through much in the rest of your argument.
Not only is no one disparaging non-Pakistani actors or actresses here, but all you've been doing is give excuses for why they shouldn't bother trying to get Pakistani actors and actresses, not arguments for why non-Pakistani actors and actresses shouldn't be ignored.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:24:12 AM
For example, in the last page, someone commented that it wouldn't matter if the actor was Muslim as long as they were Pakistani. But right now, wisewillow just stated that the actor had to be Muslim in order to portray Kamala. But what if they are Muslim and Iranian-American, instead of Pakistani-American? What if they are Pakistani-British instead of Pakistani-American? What if they are any number of other variables that don't exactly fit the character of Kamala? Would you still accept the actor in the role or would you reject the casting because you want an exact 1-to-1 match?
My argument was, again, that 1-to-1 matches are extremely difficult, sometimes bordering on impossible, so if you get an almost match (like Kathreen Khavari, who is Muslim and Iranian-American, and voice acts for Kamala), people should be fine with it.
Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:29:36 AM
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Yeah, like wisewillow said, it isn't just about race. The way Muslims are portrayed in the west is a big part of the character, and it would be nice to give the role to someone who was directly impacted by that.
If the line of reasoning you're arguing against is exactly as narrow as it seems, then it feels like I have understood it — it's arguing over semantics for its own sake, and if that's the case, I still really don't see the point in arguing it so hard if you basically agree with the rest of what's being said. It just produces an air of hostility and adds ammunition for the people who are actually opposed to casting an actual Pakistani Muslim for one reason or another.
Also an Iranian and a Pakistani aren't necessarily an almost match — about half of Iranians speak Persian, whereas the national language of Pakistan is Urdu. They share a religion, not an ethnicity. What's okay for the voice acting of a character who mostly speaks English is going to be different than what works in live action.
Edited by Unsung on Jan 27th 2019 at 11:37:46 AM
Honestly, we are fighting about nothing here. I think everyone agrees that Marvel should cast its net wide and pick the best option for the role. And if those choices include actresses which happen to be Pakistani Muslima, great, thumbs up. Some here just don't see it as a deal breaker if they end up casting an actress who isn't a Muslima or isn't Pakistani, as long as the actress still fits the role and Kamala Khan herself represents the struggles of a Pakistani Muslima in the US, and as long as the Pakistani actresses got a fair shot at the role.
Is this really worth pages of discussion? Regarding a movie which might not even happen in the first place?
Edited by Swanpride on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:36:27 AM
It's "incredibly difficult" to find a Pakistani actress in the correct age group?
Either way, if all you're doing now is insisting to people over and over and over again that they don't understand what you say and that you're actually saying something completely different, then maybe what you need to do is explain why what you've been talking about now is relevant to what you meant to say all along.
The fact of the matter is, you haven't been arguing the last few pages about whether India and Pakistan share some ethnic groups. So if that was your point the whole time, you've lost sight of it. If all this time you've been arguing against a single post made pages ago that the rest of the thread has long since moved on from, without even indicating that's what you were doing, that's a problem.
I think this the point where the arguing stops and reassessing, maybe even just plain tabling the discussion, starts.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:40:51 AM
I mean, if they cast a Latino actress, sure, protest, but if they are only a little bit off, please don't.
Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:41:43 AM
I mean, the perception that two distinct countries with distinct histories and cultures sharing some ethnic groups means that they're interchangeable is, itself, the problem being argued against.
In the case of a character whose specific cultural identity is very important to their conception, the studio shouldn't just go for "close enough" when they have the opportunity to do it right.
Then the
internet has
got you covered.
Of the ones proposed across those links, I rather like the looks of Syra Shahroze.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:46:52 AM
Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:50:10 AM
Since when has Hollywood ever cared about age group, such that that matters in regards to casting? 15 year old Spider-Man is played by a twenty something year old. All you need is to look like a teenager.
Only one of those lists includes actresses who aren't Pakistani. The other two have about 17 actresses or models who are Pakistani, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that most of them aren't Pakistani.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:50:45 AM
Which, again, is what I've been saying. You can't get a 1-to-1 match, so go with something that is close enough.
Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:52:08 AM
Except age and ethnicity aren't comparable in this regard. Child acting is something that has a very distinct approach in Hollywood, and few societies in the world have issue with fudging that. They do when it comes to ethnicity.
Likewise, it is a thing that older actors and actresses have more experience and skill than younger ones, because that's how experience actually works. You can't make the same claim with ethnicity.
They should absolutely not throw out the desire to have a Pakistani actress portray the character just because they can't find one who is actually fifteen. That's inane.
To give an extreme comparison: if we were fine with treating ethnicity the same way we did age, blackface would still be a thing.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:53:55 AM
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I wasn't talking about the new argument, hence why I referred to the previous argument.
And again, if you actually think it would be better to have a Pakistani Muslim actress play the part, why are you still going to so much trouble to convince people that it will never happen?
Edited by Unsung on Jan 27th 2019 at 11:52:30 AM
I've seen fans go crazy and become toxic before. I don't want that to happen with the MCU.
Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:53:35 AM
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Then actually address those issues as they happen, rather than trying to claim that that casting is unsuitable in the first place.
The argument against overreacting against non-perfect inclusivity shouldn't be an argument against inclusivity itself.
And if, again, you don't want to be seen as making that argument, then you really need to reassess what you've actually been saying. To paraphrase what I said before, all you've been doing is make excuses for why they shouldn't cast a Pakistani, rather than actually make a case for us not overreacting if they don't.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2019 at 10:59:03 AM
Isn't it not exactly legal to ask about religion when casting, anyway? But yes, casting a Pakistani-American actress for Kamala should be the priority. Of course it's relevant for the story that Kamala is Muslim, but her actress doesn't need to be. IMO it's more important that the writers, producers, and/or directors be Muslim (and probably South Asian, because there are a lot of differences culturally between South Asian countries and other countries with Muslim populations) since they can more accurately tailor the movie to reflect those authentic experiences.
TBH, I don't... actually know what we're arguing about, but I just wanted to throw in my $0.02 there.

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i don't see whats wrong with an elastigirl movie
have a listen and have a link to my discord server