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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95626: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:47:08 AM

A conversation is context. You're reading something into Shake-Master's reply which was never said or implied. "Don't bring it up" still isn't the same as "they don't share ethnic groups". You're going out of your way to pick a fight.

[up]They're both fairly disadvantaged in this case, and I just think for a role that is this significant representation-wise, seeking out someone of actual Pakistani descent to represent a character who is specifically a Pakistani immigrant would be meaningful.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 26th 2019 at 10:51:56 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#95627: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:50:05 AM

But trying to match the race, ethnicity, and nationality of every single character of color isn't practical either.

How is it not? There's a reason some casting calls specify race and ethnicity.

And again, the actress you proposed is half white, which Kamala Khan is not.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#95628: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:54:57 AM

[up] And that she is half-white is an argument. The country she comes from isn't. How is that difficult to understand?

Acting is about being able to portray a LOT of different roles. Which, btw, works in favour of Po C in the theatrical world, especially in the opera and ballet. They would REALLY be in disadvantage if they were automatically banned from singing in the most famous operas due to being neither Italian, French, German or Russian.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#95629: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:55:28 AM

You can't just act as if a French actress playing someone from Germany right now is the same as a Japanese actor playing a Chinese character or, in your example, a Mexican playing a Colombian. The latter (intentionally or not) speaks to a recurring history of Racism in American culture that involves painting those countries as the same (i.e All Asians are alike and everything south of the border is the same country).

You could argue Colombians also get a lot less representation in American media than Mexicans, comparatively speaking.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95630: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:57:20 AM

How is it not? There's a reason some casting calls specify race and ethnicity.
Some casting calls, not all of them. Because trying to cast 1-to-1 with race, ethnicity, and nationality for every role is an exercise in futility. You are eventually either going to find that there aren't enough actors from a very specific region or find that the actor you want to cast (because they are a good actor) isn't from that region.

Also, bringing up that an actress is "half-white" isn't helping. Both Halle Berry and Alexandra Shipp have played Storm, an African character, and they are both half-white, too. Being half-white shouldn't prohibit an actor from playing a role. If they were half-white, half-Pakistani, would you have the same objections?

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95631: Jan 26th 2019 at 10:02:03 AM

This isn't an argument that requires a flat yes or no decision. We're not setting legal precedent, here, it can and should still be taken case by case. But there are times, I think, when it's worthwhile to at least try to line up the character's racial and cultural background with the characters, and I think this is one of them. Not every time, not to the point where actors can't ever play other nationalities or religions and so on, but with Kamala, coming from an immigrant family is such a significant part of her life and character.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 26th 2019 at 11:10:46 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#95632: Jan 26th 2019 at 10:04:34 AM

[up][up]The casting of Shipp and Berry as Storm was met with criticism as well.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#95633: Jan 26th 2019 at 10:07:27 AM

[up][up][up][up] For the record, usually Americans and/or Brits are getting the German roles, and then they are speaking with a terrible fake accent. While actual German actors, like Daniel Brühl, are lucky if they are allowed to play a Bond villain and/or a character with a complete fake nationality.

Here is how I see it: If you want an accent, pick someone who at least actually speaks some German. If not, well, then it doesn't matter.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 26th 2019 at 10:36:59 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95634: Jan 26th 2019 at 10:13:39 AM

This isn't an argument that requires a flat yes or no decision, we're not setting legal precedent, here. It can and should still be taken case by case.
I agree. And I agree that finding a Pakistani-American actress for Kamala would be the best case scenario. But I also think that an actor shouldn't be disparaged if they don't fit the exact profile for the character they are playing.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#95635: Jan 26th 2019 at 10:28:25 AM

There are a lot of nationalists in India and Pakistan who don't like people from their country being compared to or having anything to do with people from the other country. But is that really an attitude you want to support?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#95636: Jan 26th 2019 at 10:38:45 AM

On the flipside, American culture and particularly Hollywood have a bad habit of perceiving non-European cultures, especially Middle Eastern and Asian cultures, as an interchangeable block, and that's not an attitude that needs to be supported either.

I don't really have an opinion on this one way or another, but I do think it’s a situation that shouldn’t be portrayed as cut and dry in either direction.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 26th 2019 at 10:39:01 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#95637: Jan 26th 2019 at 10:40:34 AM

[up] They have the same attitude towards European countries, too. In any case, this is something you solve by having people who know the difference working on the script, the production design aso. The actor doesn't really play into it.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 26th 2019 at 10:41:24 AM

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#95638: Jan 26th 2019 at 10:42:21 AM

In general, I agree that the character and actor’s nationalities don’t need to match. In this particular case, given the high level of hostility between India and Pakistan, I think casting an Indian woman as a Pakistani character might be ill-advised.

And aside from that issue, I think part of Kamala’s value is in humanizing people from an area that many Americas perceieve as threatening. Among immigrants to the US, I would guess “I’m from India” would not provoke the same mistrust/hostility as “I’m from Pakistan”. It’s another reason why having a Pakistani actress for her would be nice.

Edited by Galadriel on Jan 26th 2019 at 1:43:14 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95639: Jan 26th 2019 at 10:50:34 AM

To be clear, I'm not trying to prop up nationalism on either side, but I don't think this is a controversy that can be avoided without being at least marginally aware of it.

[up]That's also quite true.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 26th 2019 at 11:52:13 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#95640: Jan 26th 2019 at 11:03:27 AM

" You can't just act as if a French actress playing someone from Germany right now is the same as a Japanese actor playing a Chinese character"

something I always remenber is how memory og a geisha actress complain exactly of this: how white people can play other white people(like british and american or jeweish playing no jewsit actor and vice versa) but the same dosent happen with asian actors.

I mean I get what you are saying but it is in turn into a sort od dobule standar were europa and US being a treat as block result in a net positive for them.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#95641: Jan 26th 2019 at 11:09:53 AM

The plight of Germans (in this case) is nowhere near comparable to that of Latinos when it comes to Media representation or really, most of everything else. That's what makes the comparison silly in every way and the double standard lose punch. It requires you to ignore everything about both examples except the broad premise rather than the fact we're trying to compare one of the most privileged countries on earth with Latin America.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#95642: Jan 26th 2019 at 11:16:56 AM

Kamala Khan's representation value seems to have at least as much (and probably more) to do with her being a Muslim superhero as it does with her race or national ancestry. Given that, suppose they cast a Pakistani-American to play Kamala, but it turns out the actor is an atheist. Would you object to them not casting an actual, practicing Muslim in the part?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#95643: Jan 26th 2019 at 11:25:20 AM

Would it be OK if they cast a Bangladeshi actress? Bangladesh's independence from Pakistan was prompted by ethnic differences between the native Bengali peoples and the inhabitants of West Pakistan and the discrimination that ensued.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#95644: Jan 26th 2019 at 11:33:28 AM

Indeed, one of the biggest positive aspects of Kamala as a character is that she's a heroic Pakistani Muslim whose culture is very important to her, respectfully portrayed with no strings attached introduced in a time where much of America was casually racist against Pakistani and intolerant of Islam and against either being positively portrayed, let alone with characters that were proud to be either.

The kind of backlash is less major now than it was when she first arrived, but we're still in a time where American media doesn't typically take steps to portray Middle Easterners in a way that's not faceless.

Having her be portrayed by a Pakistani would be an important way to reinforce that effect. You could do so without it, sure, but why would you if you had the choice? Beyond - in true Hollywood fare - Indian actors being easier and more convenient to hire instead.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 26th 2019 at 11:45:21 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#95645: Jan 26th 2019 at 11:35:17 AM

I wonder what would Kamala said about Iron man, in one thing he is trying to do better, on the other....well, he is weapon dealer and it isnt that hard for someone to link the state of middle east to guys like him.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#95646: Jan 26th 2019 at 11:40:26 AM

Yeah, isn't that the whole reason he chose to become Iron Man?: his entire, extravagant lifestyle was being paid by work that was killing thousands and ruining innocent people's lifes, and when he was confronted with that fact he couldn't ignore that anymore.

Edited by HailMuffins on Jan 26th 2019 at 4:41:21 PM

Shake-Master Since: Dec, 2013
#95647: Jan 26th 2019 at 1:27:13 PM

Is someone really bringing up a black British man playing a black American man as the example for how getting a characters race wrong is totally fine?

The experience and culture of black men in England, and in America, is a hell of a lot closer (I didn't say identical, just closer) than that of Indian women, and Pakistani women.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95648: Jan 26th 2019 at 1:34:30 PM

I'd actually say that they are a lot farther apart. Plus, we aren't talking about race, but rather nationality.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#95649: Jan 26th 2019 at 1:37:00 PM

Why think so complicated? If it is an Indian Actress, why not make a Adaptational Nationality out of it and make Kamala an indian muslim?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Shake-Master Since: Dec, 2013
#95650: Jan 26th 2019 at 1:40:50 PM

Oh, great, you've gone from telling Pakistani people that they're interchangable with Indians to just pretending they don't exist at all, that's so much better.


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