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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Shake-Master Since: Dec, 2013
#95601: Jan 26th 2019 at 4:08:00 AM

I thought everyone in Wakanda loved Shuri? Its just M'Baku and the Jabari, who are all old men yelling at a teenage girl to respect her elders, dagnabbit.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#95602: Jan 26th 2019 at 4:08:30 AM

Given Wakanda's isolation, I'd be shocked if most of the political cartoons there weren't staggeringly racist. Just the reaction from the rest of the world would be hilarious on its own.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#95603: Jan 26th 2019 at 4:16:20 AM

[up][up] I don’t think it was ever stated that the citizens universally loved Shuri.

Considering how publicly okay she is with the rest of the world, it makes sense for her to be unpopular in some circles due to living in a very nationalistic & isolated nation.

[up] I wouldn’t mind reading some of that. I assume they think we’re all idiots. tongue

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 26th 2019 at 4:17:23 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#95604: Jan 26th 2019 at 4:21:27 AM

Yeah, I mean, there are a LOT of downsides to isolated societies. You just have to compare the level of racism in Western Europe with the level of racism in Eastern Europe to get an idea what long term isolation leads to.

Shake-Master Since: Dec, 2013
#95605: Jan 26th 2019 at 4:29:10 AM

[up][up]How is Shuri show to be okay with outside cultures? Like, she has an interest in American pop culture, but apart from that, she doesn't really give a damn either way. She fixed Bucky and Ross mainly cause T'Challa asked her to, not because of a deeper appreciation for and love of the outside world.

Nakia believed in breaking down barriers and using Wakandas resources to help the rest of the world, but S Huri never expressed any ideas like that.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#95606: Jan 26th 2019 at 4:35:34 AM

There we go, interest in pop culture.

Because why would you show any interest in what is obviously inferior entertainment when you have Wakandan entertainment?

She’s prolly more popular with the relatively liberal or open-minded Wakandans & controversial with the more traditional ones depending on how you think a princess should act.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 26th 2019 at 4:36:00 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#95607: Jan 26th 2019 at 5:54:22 AM

To be fair, even T'Chaka was fond of watching "old American movies" according to Shuri, so perhaps that's just a thing with the Royal Family in-general.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#95608: Jan 26th 2019 at 6:36:16 AM

Maybe Wakanda doesn't have much of a movie industry.

@slimcoder: Well, they're not exactly wrong...

Edited by HailMuffins on Jan 26th 2019 at 11:37:41 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#95609: Jan 26th 2019 at 6:54:51 AM

Which brings me back to one of the problems I have with the movie: I would really have liked to see more how the average Wakandan lives. How do they hide what they really are from the world?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#95610: Jan 26th 2019 at 7:23:43 AM

With a holographic bubble-field.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#95611: Jan 26th 2019 at 7:25:14 AM

Focusing on one of the random citizens would have taken the focus away from Black Panther,they did not have time for detour

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#95612: Jan 26th 2019 at 7:39:03 AM

[up] I didn't say that they had to FOCUS on a random citizen. I just wanted to be a better sense of Wakanda.

Ie the talk Okaye had with the lover/husband/whatever could have happened in their home (or one of their homes) instead of somewhere in the palace.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95613: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:36:19 AM

That statement is one of the few things that can bring together Pakistani and Indian people, cause saying it will cause both to want to murder you.
Not really, because Pakistan and India do have a lot of the same ethnic groups, considering that they used to be one country until the Partition of India in 1947.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#95614: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:46:54 AM

Which brings me back to one of the problems I have with the movie: I would really have liked to see more how the average Wakandan lives. How do they hide what they really are from the world?

None of the Marvel movies have been that great about showing how average people live. The tv shows are a little better, but not by much. AoS doesn't focus on civilians much, the Netflix shows are a bit weird about how much the films impact them, and Runaways and Cloak and Dagger are pretty unconnected to the rest of the universe.

I would kill for a slice of life show set in Wakanda.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95615: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:51:26 AM

If you know the history of India and Pakistan going back to the partition, you do know that there's some residual hostility there, right? Ethnicity, nationality, and ancestry are not a simple equation. Broad statements like that and casting Indians as Pakistanis as if they're interchangeable would just be courting further controversy on Marvel's part.

[up]I wouldn't mind a story about someone who grew up in Wakanda but not in the Royal Family. Any characters from the comics who might fit the bill who we could follow? Even if they were to become a superhero later?

Edited by Unsung on Jan 26th 2019 at 9:56:13 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95616: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:53:35 AM

I realize that, but saying that India and Pakistan don't share ethnic groups is also completely incorrect. That's what I was responding to.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#95617: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:55:50 AM

[up][up][up] Sure, but they are set in our world. I can fill the blanks quite easily. Not so much with Wakanda.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 26th 2019 at 8:55:59 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95618: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:59:59 AM

Ethnicity isn't just cultural or genetic — national loyalties can and do factor into it. Saying that because they can share ethnic groups, an Indian actress is equivalent to a Pakistani actress is going to upset people. That's what was being argued.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95619: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:10:09 AM

That wasn't what was being argued. Someone asked "Don't they share ethnic groups?" and someone else replied with "Both Indians and Pakistanis would disagree with that." Which is, again, untrue, because they do share ethnic groups, even if the countries have a history of animosity towards one another. For example: a lot of Pakistanis have Indian ancestry and vice versa.

In any case, saying "only a Pakistani actress" can play Kamala Khan is just silly, considering her current voice actress is Iranian-American.

HalfFaust Since: Jan, 2019
#95620: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:21:00 AM

Weirdly, some Ms Marvel comics gave us a sort-of civilian view of Wakanda, as Bruno ended up going to a school there (it was kind of a weird plot). Though Black Panther still turned up eventually.

Edited by HalfFaust on Jan 26th 2019 at 9:21:14 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#95621: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:22:02 AM

People are generally more accepting of voice actors not matching the race, ethnicity or nationality of the character they are voicing. That or they don't typically bother to even know. Live action actors have gotten more scrutiny as of late. That the actress you proposed is also half white will not go unnoticed either.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95622: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:30:13 AM

People are generally more accepting of voice actors not matching the race, ethnicity or nationality of the character they are voicing.
But trying to match the race, ethnicity, and nationality of every single character of color isn't practical either. For example: Get Out! features an African-American main character, but he's played by someone who is from Britain. The cultures of black people from America and Britain are vastly different — but did the movie suffer for this? Did anyone care? Not really, because he gave a great performance.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95623: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:37:07 AM

This is why you can't just cherrypick half the argument to respond to. Shake-Master's post that you quoteblocked existed in context — by taking it out of context, you've invented an argument that nobody was even having. The original point was not that they share no ethnic groups, but that saying that sharing ethnic groups made them interchangeable is a good way to start a fight between people of two countries with a long, troubled history. Nobody said that there was no ethnic overlap at all.

[up]You don't have to, it doesn't affect the performance, but it could affect someone's career, so what's the harm in trying?

Edited by Unsung on Jan 26th 2019 at 10:38:59 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95624: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:43:54 AM

The original point was not that they share no ethnic groups, but that saying that sharing ethnic groups made them interchangeable
Except that wasn't what the point being made was. In fact, I quoted Shake-Master's comment in full, which, again was this: "That statement is one of the few things that can bring together Pakistani and Indian people, cause saying it will cause both to want to murder you." Which was in response to RavenWilder's comment "Don't Pakistan and India share a lot of the same ethnic groups, though?"

You are assuming a point was being made when it really wasn't. RavenWilder was just asking a question, not trying to make a point. Shake-Master's response wasn't "They aren't interchangeable" but rather "Don't bring up the fact that they share ethnic groups, because India and Pakistan hate one another." Again: that's not the point you are trying to make, which is actually one I agree with. I took nothing out of context at all.

You don't have to, it doesn't affect the performance, but it could affect someone's career, so what's the harm in trying?
There's no harm in trying, but I think if someone who isn't Pakistani-American is cast, we shouldn't disparage them for it.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 26th 2019 at 9:44:38 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#95625: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:46:08 AM

[up][up] This argument would maybe fly if one group is considerably more disadvantaged compared to the other. Like: I get the argument to cast people who are impaired for the few roles which exist for them (or at least go through an effort to let them audition), because there is only a small pool of potential roles for them in the first place, while an actor who is not impaired has a lot of options to pick from. I don't get the argument that an actress from country X shouldn't portray a character from country Y, because it works in both directions. Next time there is maybe a role for a character from country X and this time around the actress from country Y gets cast.

Case to point: The actor who in Ao S portrays the Mexican Inhuman Joey, is actually not from Mexico, but from Columbia. But the actress they cast for Yoyo, who is Columbian within universe, is from Mexico.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 26th 2019 at 9:46:22 AM


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