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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#95001: Jan 16th 2019 at 12:01:11 PM

Quite. Returns came out in 1992, right as the 90's were kicking off. And it shows, being a fantastic example of that decade's tendency to mistake edgy for complex.

"The Penguin bit off that guy's nose. It was gruesome! That makes my movie mature and cool!"

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 16th 2019 at 1:01:52 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#95002: Jan 16th 2019 at 12:03:42 PM

And they're campy as heck. The Penguin makes sex puns every other sentence, eats raw fish, bites a guys nose and draws blood yet somehow is still popular, has a plan to blow up Gotham with giant penguins with rockets strapped their backs, tries to get away in a giant rubber ducky-mobile, messes with the Batmobile from what looks like a arcade VR game, and is given a Viking funeral by freaking penguins.

Catwoman licks herself, sticks a live bird in her mouth, literally has nine lives, gets licked back to life by cats, does random crap for no reason, survives by falling into a giant truck full of kitty litter that happens to be passing by, and kills Christopher Walken by French-kissing him with a stun gun, etc.

Yes this is truly the "dark and serious" Batman film, nothing campy or ridiculous here at all. At least Adam West was open about it and the show had some actual clever camp to it.

Also no, Burton doesn't explore Bruce Wayne to any real degree. He's one of the least defined and boring Bruce Wayne's ever (pity to because Michael Keaton's performance is quite good).

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#95003: Jan 16th 2019 at 12:05:14 PM

[up][up]It depends, something I have noted is that seriousness is often asociated with boring or just being flat, more often that not it means "people talk, nothing happen, the end".

the pinguin is intersting in how awfull and yet sore of pitable is considering how everythig just fall apart over him again and again, the implication he give that bat is just another freak in a mask like him, the dance were selina and bruce talk about having other identities...they are good and intersting moments in the movie.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#95004: Jan 16th 2019 at 12:07:04 PM

I don't think it's necessarily "mature", but saying that goofy and over-the-top can't also be complex is an oversimplification in the other direction. There's a lot going on artistically and emotionally in the Tim Burton Batman movies. Maybe not as much ideologically or philosophically as in the Christopher Nolan movies, but it's been said that Nolan's characters tend to be a bit cardboard/talking head, and I don't think that's unfair either. But being mature is not the only yardstick here.

Serious =/= complex, basically, and dark does not preclude silly.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 16th 2019 at 1:15:16 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#95005: Jan 16th 2019 at 12:09:28 PM

[up]It said in how noland try to devopt bruce but to no avil because the film is emocionally dry as hell by nolan style, in fact you can see something of nolan style in man of steel in how....cold everytone talk at times, specially jor el.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#95006: Jan 16th 2019 at 12:22:50 PM

Tim Burton's Batman are the summation of Batman comics at their best, by which I mean they are bathos through and through. The world Batman inhabits in the comics is a bizarre Gothic wonderland in which a man dressed like a bats fight colorful mentally ill criminals for the fate of the city on a weekly basis. The contrast between this bizarre, almost silly universe and the serious themes it tackles has always been a staple of Batman fiction. You'll be hard pressed to find many Batman stories that don't lean on this contrast some way or another.

Both films have Gotham and overall universe as being downright ridiculous but also calmly taking this absurd universe seriously. Penguin being given a funeral by his penguins is probably the best example, because it's a completely ridiculous concept on paper, but on the movie it's played to a extremely tragic effect and the result is a bizarre but very emotionally compelling scene that serves as the perfect book ends to the character of the Penguin.

There are actually much campier moments played for straight comedy, like Penguin being pelted during his speech ("who brings tomatoes to a speech?").

If anything I think the claim of the intellectuality of both films is understated. While it isn't dwelt on as much as it should have been, both movies manage to make a pretty interesting Miller-esque characterization of the "Bruce Wayne is the mask, Batman is his real identity" concept. Both movies (but more specifically Returns) show him as this anti-social, repressed ball of rage whose only outlet is beating criminals to a pulp with his bare fists. It's just very understated, because Keaton and Burton had this idea of playing Batman as a more strong and silent type who talks with body language.

There's a lot of interesting stuff in those two films, really. The three-way psychological parallels between Penguin, Catwoman and Batman, for example, are just great. One of my favorite concepts is the idea the film brings up a couple of times about Batman sympathizing but also envying Penguin because they both are monsters, in a sense, but Penguin is "a genuine freak" while Bats needs a mask to let his "inner monster out'.

To bring this back to the actual topic of the MCU, I actually think the approach of both Batman movies (where there's all this camp, silly shit being thrown in a blender with complex themes) eventually found its way to the MCU, particularly in the Guardians of the Galaxy movies, but on a opposite end of the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#95008: Jan 16th 2019 at 1:04:42 PM

Okay but we all agree that Mask of the Phantasm is the best Batman movie, right?

This song needs more love.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#95009: Jan 16th 2019 at 1:06:54 PM

It's great, but Under the Red Hood is another good contender me thinks.

Also: MCU thread? grin

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#95010: Jan 16th 2019 at 1:08:01 PM

> Okay but we all agree that Mask of the Phantasm is the best Batman movie, right?

OBJECTION

batman and robin is the best one on account of making Mr.Freeze while giving him silly ice puns

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#95011: Jan 16th 2019 at 1:10:53 PM

Under The Red Hood is the best Batman film and any claims to the contrary are WRONG!

WRONG, I SAY!

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#95012: Jan 16th 2019 at 1:25:16 PM

Burton's Batman killed people, his suit was literally made of rubber, Alfred betrayed his secret identity to the first hot woman who had any interest in Bruce whatsoever, and his batsuit was hanging on a coathanger in a closet with a row of Batsuits.

Terrible movies, terrible director.

My various fanfics.
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#95013: Jan 16th 2019 at 1:30:40 PM

What does Batman have to with Marvel?

Oh wait, I know!

'Puter: What is the password?
Batman: Iron Man sucks!

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#95014: Jan 16th 2019 at 2:59:28 PM

Batman is the only guy with a song about how awesome he is.

Tony should really hire someone to make him one.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95015: Jan 16th 2019 at 2:59:29 PM

Spider-Man: Far From Home will feature the first ever transgender actors in an MCU film. (Note: this isn't the first transgender actor in the MCU as a whole; Luke Cage Season 1 had a transgender actor in a flashback.)

Edited by alliterator on Jan 16th 2019 at 4:14:51 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#95016: Jan 16th 2019 at 3:17:31 PM

Interesting. It's news when a big-budget blockbuster production company takes steps like this. For one, it can afford the risk if some nutters get a mad-on about it. For another, it can demonstrate that you can have successful and diverse productions in mainstream film.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 16th 2019 at 6:17:50 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#95017: Jan 16th 2019 at 3:24:49 PM

I hope they are an actual character & not a bit character this time.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#95018: Jan 16th 2019 at 3:30:41 PM

That's my concern. It's great that they're willing to take the step of making trans actors feel openly welcome to apply, but if they're not going to be that important to the overall narrative then it's a very small step forward for visibility in the media.

Looking up Cunningham found me this interesting story at least.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 16th 2019 at 6:34:41 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#95019: Jan 16th 2019 at 3:36:04 PM

Is it strange that I somehow hope that the character is NOT transgender? Because I think a lot of transgender actors can pass as either gender and they shouldn't be limited to only transgender roles….

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#95020: Jan 16th 2019 at 3:50:46 PM

If a trans woman is cast as a cis woman, that’s cool. If a trans woman is cast as a trans woman, that’s cool. Casting a trans woman as a man would be really weird and gross.

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 16th 2019 at 6:51:23 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#95021: Jan 16th 2019 at 3:59:35 PM

[up] Eh...doesn't work transgender in both direction? You know that there are females who feel more like a man, too, right? And shouldn't a transgender actor decide for him/herself which kind of roles he/she wants to audition for?

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 16th 2019 at 4:00:25 AM

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#95022: Jan 16th 2019 at 4:04:05 PM

[up] Yes, they are called trans men.

Edited by Ikedatakeshi on Jan 16th 2019 at 8:06:21 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#95023: Jan 16th 2019 at 4:09:55 PM

And casting trans men as cis men or trans men is also fine. But I imagine most trans women wouldn’t want to be cast as a man and ditto for trans men being cast as women. Someone who feels comfortable as a man or woman (or nonbinary) would be genderfluid and might be open to roles of either gender.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#95024: Jan 16th 2019 at 4:16:59 PM

Eh...doesn't work transgender in both direction?
Transwomen are those who transitioned from male to female. Transmen are those who transitioned from female to male. So while "transgender" works both ways, "transwomen" and "transmen" only work one way each.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#95025: Jan 16th 2019 at 4:17:01 PM

Like I said, they don't have to audition for roles they feel uncomfortable with and can politely reject them. There is no reason to put them in some sort of box.


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