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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#94676: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:23:16 PM

That would make things very difficult for the hero though.

I kinda like it. Zemo was just a very broken man who didn't care what happened to him (hence his decision to just shoot himself once he won), but someone who's determined not to harm innocents in the process of their revenge would probably leave Nat asking herself why she's even fighting back, and that's interesting drama.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94677: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:23:38 PM

Revenge Myopia, which Enishi also enacted in.

You are less sympathetic if you are a blatant hypocrite.

Then again as long as you don’t try to justify it which Zemo didn’t do I think.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 14th 2019 at 12:24:27 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94678: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:26:38 PM

No, he actually apologized to T'Challa in the end. Still, blowing up tons of innocent people makes him look bad either way. And his revenge was also quite misguided from the start.

But somebody who would go after Natasha, and just Natasha for something she definitely, directly did would be a whole different story.

Edited by Forenperser on Jan 14th 2019 at 9:27:02 PM

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MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#94679: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:29:10 PM

Zemo aknowledges many times that he's done terrible things in his past and present.

Once he finds them, he kills the other Soldiers to rid the world of more like Bucky, and it's why he plans to pull the trigger once he's done tearing the Avengers apart.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94680: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:34:25 PM

Yeah, I don't think that Zemo cares much about the moral aspect of his actions.

To me he basically blames himself for never having been there for his family and not going home to protect them when the Avengers turned up, but because he doesn't want to deal with this guilt, he shifts it towards the Avengers and focusses on revenge. He knows perfectly well that he will do to other people what was done to him, but he doesn't care as long as he gets what he wants. Which leaves him in an interesting place for a villain.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94681: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:37:16 PM

It certainly makes him less insufferable than other villains who whine & cry out about their troubles yet ignoring that they are effectively doing the same thing to other people.

At least be honest about your revenge.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#94682: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:46:59 PM

Putting it that way, he reminds me a bit of Guts.

They both even got the whole "punching way above their weight class" thing going for them, too.

And man, last time I've read Kenshin I had to stop during the beginning of the Kyoto arc because of the, ahem, unfortunate news about the author breaking out. Imma give it a second try, though, been enough time for the shock to have mostly wore off.

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#94683: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:47:13 PM

Zemo even kinda aknowledges that it was his fault, becuase he figured that they'd be far enough from the fight at his father's house, which was outside the city.

It's hard to tell if he blames the Avengers for not stopping Ultron before he could turn Sokovia into a meteor, for not doing enough to help Sokovians in the aftermath, or just for existing and bringing about threats like Ultron.

His anger is very much misplaced, but he doesn't really care. All he wants is his revenge.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#94684: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:59:56 PM

I wouldn't say it's misplaced (his family would never be in danger in the first place if not for the Avengers) his issues is running over everyone else to get to them.

On another note, is it possible Sharon was a victim of the snap?

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#94685: Jan 14th 2019 at 1:06:17 PM

There's one I've never seen anyone bring up before.

Pity, really, I like Sharon.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94686: Jan 14th 2019 at 1:08:04 PM

[up][up]Well, that is debateable. Yeah, Ultron was created by Tony Stark, but the robot still made his own choices. Just like Grant Ward was heavily abused by his parents and brother and molded into a killer by Garrett, but he still made his own choices to hurt Team Coulson.

Zemo's anger might have been understandable, but his actions were still misguided.

Edited by Forenperser on Jan 14th 2019 at 10:08:22 AM

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94687: Jan 14th 2019 at 1:18:05 PM

A robot is different from a person, however. Generally, it's assumed that a person makes their own choices and their parents can't really be blamed if they go on a rampage. A robot, however, is generally assumed to be programmed, so the fault lies with whoever built it/programmed it.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 14th 2019 at 1:37:45 AM

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#94688: Jan 14th 2019 at 1:21:55 PM

Sharon stepping up in the aftermath of the Snap to help on the non-superhero side of things in the absence of Maria and Nick would be fucking amazing.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94689: Jan 14th 2019 at 1:22:19 PM

Well, but Ultron clearly goes against his programming, to the point of hating his creator and trying to flat-out murder him. He shows distinct personality traits and goals, he has full agency.

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Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#94690: Jan 14th 2019 at 1:26:38 PM

Zemo wasn’t there, for all he knows Ultron was working basically how Stark intended or in a controllable capacity.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94691: Jan 14th 2019 at 1:27:12 PM

Sure, but said creator didn't take the necessary precautions.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94692: Jan 14th 2019 at 1:33:21 PM

It is due to Stark’s incompetance & negligence that Ultron went as crazy as he did.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#94693: Jan 14th 2019 at 1:45:34 PM

Eh. The whole "evil mind control staff from Thanos" bit could have had something to do with that.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 14th 2019 at 2:48:43 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#94694: Jan 14th 2019 at 1:47:15 PM

For all we know Ultron might not be an AI but something else,he was the result of decrypted code within the staff,whatever the code was it led to him,could be he was an entity bound to the mind stone itself

A magical artifact thats millions of years old has COMPUTER code in it,how unusual

Edited by Ultimatum on Jan 14th 2019 at 9:49:54 AM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#94695: Jan 14th 2019 at 2:07:06 PM

What came out of the Mind Stone wasn’t Tony’s fault. That he opened it, without fully understanding what it was and without informing any of the other Avengers is definitely his fault. He basically got a USB from no-idea-where and stuck it into his computer, then was taken aback that it contained a virus.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jan 14th 2019 at 2:07:18 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#94696: Jan 14th 2019 at 2:14:32 PM

Ultron is complicated. Stark acted under influence both from Wanda's mental suggestion and from the passive influence from the Mind Gem, which is shown to be trying to create a vessel even before he comes along. How responsible he actually is for being the guy to actually succeed where Strucker failed in service to the Scepter AI is debatable.

This is exactly the kind of wishy-washy fault attribution that I don't want them to give Nat for the "red in her ledger". Nat's crimes should be crimes that Nat committed because she was a bad person in service to a bad cause.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 14th 2019 at 3:14:47 AM

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#94697: Jan 14th 2019 at 2:15:16 PM

No, he actually apologized to T'Challa in the end. Still, blowing up tons of innocent people makes him look bad either way. And his revenge was also quite misguided from the start.

Well, I'm a little late to this party, but yeah, Zemo wasn't misguided in his revenge...except it was really Tony on his own who did this and not the Avengers, so really, he's the only one who Zemo should be targeting.

But that's Tony for you. Always dragging others into his problems.

Although I should mention that even though I've ultimately come to blame Tony for what happened, I still find it interesting that in the three days he studied it, nothing happened, and he made zero progress, and then literally the moment he turns away for a few hours, Ultron comes on line, goes crazy and starts wrecking shit.

I'm still convinced it was some kind of trap, because even if he was screwing around with things he didn't understand, why did it only happen when he stopped watching it closely and he let his guard down.

Ultra didn't just blow up in Tony's face: he waited until Tony blinked to do so.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#94698: Jan 14th 2019 at 2:18:40 PM

Zemo has the same problem the rest of the film has: Civil War is a movie that's only read the Cliff's Notes on the previous films. "The Helicarrier fight in D.C., uh, Cap probably got some people killed there, whatever. Oh, and Age of Ultron had that climax where the Avengers, like, I bet they were just blowing shit up left and right like Man of Steel."

It foregoes actual literal references to the other films like the Hulk smashing Johannesburg or Tony building Ultron in favor of Broad Strokes mentions that some battles happened, and the point about the Avengers being dangerous is made lesser for it.

It's just weird to watch Age of Ultron, see the Avengers doing everything in their power to protect civilians and minimize casualties, and then move on to Civil War where the Avengers are bad people for not giving a single shit about civilian casualties and just wrecking Sokovia for kicks.

End of the day, the Russos are stellar writers, but they also have a problem of not really paying attention to what anyone else produces in the MCU. Similar criticisms have been levied at Infinity War over their portrayals of certain characters, such as the Guardians.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 14th 2019 at 3:20:00 AM

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94699: Jan 14th 2019 at 2:19:50 PM

Nat was brainwashed as a child into doing what she did. Tony knew perfectly well that he shouldn't do it, but he did it anyway because he didn't care about reasonable objections.

Not that I would put either of them into prison, mind you.

[up]…that is not what Civil war is saying. It is just rightly pointing out that sometimes the best of the Avengers isn't good enough and that there are consequences to their actions, good AND bad.

Plus, Civil War focussed mostly on Sokovia and the incident in Africa for a REASON.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 14th 2019 at 2:22:37 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94700: Jan 14th 2019 at 2:22:27 PM

Well, conditioning is just an excuse for so long. Just look at Gamora, she was also basically brainwashed by Thanos and yet she still had enough strength to break free from him later.

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