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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94651: Jan 14th 2019 at 4:55:28 AM

I don't want it to be a prequel either….

HalfFaust Since: Jan, 2019
#94652: Jan 14th 2019 at 4:59:13 AM

I think R's occasionally end up as 18s so they're not 100% comparable, though both Deadpools, Venom and Logan did end up 15s. I expect they'd mostly use it for the violence, and maybe throw some swearing in there just because they can.

It would presumably be R-rated because, well, there's been some reasonably successful R-rated superhero movies and now and she's kind of the most obvious 'dark' character. Which isn't to say it's a good idea though.

I feel like most people are throwing around the idea of 'basically just a spy movie' and it'd feel kind of weird to have that set post even the first Avengers, hence prequel.

Edited by HalfFaust on Jan 14th 2019 at 5:01:11 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94653: Jan 14th 2019 at 5:17:34 AM

I don't think that it would be weird at all if said spy movie were related to the skrulls….

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94654: Jan 14th 2019 at 6:00:32 AM

It's always refreshing (itself a somewhat sad fact) not to have a female protagonist face down the threat of rape, although the problem for Black Widow is that her backstory seems like it's tailor-made for all kinds of psychological trauma, and it's not like sexual abuse isn't a very real technique to degrade and traumatize females in our world.

There's also a double standard in that you don't see male protagonists getting threatened with rape, at least in a non-comedic way. Until we fix that, yeah, I'll be just as happy if Natasha's stand-alone film doesn't have it.

Having her face the Skrulls would be rather interesting, although it does raise the question of why Captain Marvel would fly off into the beyond if there was still a Skrull threat here on Earth. Maybe they come back? Honestly, as much as it would satisfy many comics fans, I don't particularly enjoy the idea of a "guess which canon character was secretly a shapeshifting infiltrator all this time" plot, because it provides a convenient way to (a) retcon continuity problems, (b) erase character development.

It's a cheap, hack tactic if used wrong. The only way to use it right is to plan for it from the beginning and plant clues in the behavior of the characters over a long time, such as from the start of the MCU. You could also play around with multiple realities — such as some timelines in which the Secret Invasion was successful — but that's also a can of worms. Maybe if Endgame opens up the multiverse jar... but again, I would be disappointed. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of works have done that well... BioShock Infinite comes to mind.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 14th 2019 at 9:07:02 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#94655: Jan 14th 2019 at 6:04:39 AM

> There's also a double standard in that you don't see male protagonists getting threatened with rape

From what I've seen that only happens if it's in a prison setting,and even its treated as attempt at humour

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#94656: Jan 14th 2019 at 6:14:30 AM

@Forensper: I'm talking about both. The gap is closer in the MCU where Cap is more superhuman and Spidey has a lot less experience, but it's always been a close match. The gap should be wider, but again, Spidey is a guy who regularly has trouble against people with much less superhuman capacity than Cap. Kingpin is the most obvious example, and the ol' retcon you mentioned ("oh he was just holding back!") has always felt silly to me because Spidey never holds back to that "I could beat you within a fraction of a second" extent against other opponents (like the aforementioned Hammerhead) plus it's pretty irresponsible of him to let Kingpin pummel him with impunity when he's so many leagues ahead of Fisk and could end the fight quickly without killing him. Not to mention Fisk himself is full to the brim with "peak human" feats like crushing a man's skull with his fist like it's a grape and regularly cracking concrete walls with punches or flying straight through them completely unharmed. It's just a silly idea all-around just used to give Spidey a badass moment.

Fisk is peak human. And peak human in comics is bullshit that effectively means you're on the lower-end of superhuman. Observe "peak human" Cap forcing open and crumpling steel doors like they're cardboard and him kicking a motherfucker hard enough he goes flying several feet back and bends steel upon hitting a bus.

I'm always reminded of that priceless page where Spidey remarks "For a guy with no power you're a tough customer!" about Fisk seconds before Fisk casually rips off a steel staircase and swings it around like a bat, to which Spidey can just go (paraphrased) "oh, you're one of those "peak human" bullshit guys, alright. I can work with this."

Kraven, for the record, is basically around that level. He takes some mystic herbs that enhance him to his strongest form (at the cost of absolutely tanking his health) and that's it, but you never see Kraven regularly flying through concrete walls unharmed like Fisk and Cap often do. In fact his strength feats are far lesser than what Fisk regularly does.

If you take this interpretation that Spider-Man is laughably above human levels most of his rogues gallery shouldn't be even be able to touch him, much less pummel with impunity.

On the Widow discussion: I am very opposed to sexual violence in a Black Widow movie, but I'd like it to be R-Rated. The best Black Widow movie was, after all, R-Rated.

Edited by Gaon on Jan 14th 2019 at 6:15:33 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94657: Jan 14th 2019 at 6:17:35 AM

Well...there are exceptions...see Shawshank's redemption….

Hopefully the people responsible for the Black Widow movie are aware of the potential mine-fields.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94658: Jan 14th 2019 at 6:44:56 AM

Plus, the rumor was that there had been "discussions" over whether the Black Widow film would be rated R. For all we know, those discussions could have gone like this:

Marvel executive: Should the Black Widow film be rated R?
Disney executive: No, absolutely not.
Marvel executive: Okay.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#94659: Jan 14th 2019 at 6:48:38 AM

I don't want any kind of sexual violence in Widow's movie either.

The biggest thing I want out of her film is the opportunity to see her hurt innocent people. That probably sounds f*cked, but hear me out.

Nat's archetype is The Atoner. She did very bad things in the past, should have been killed by S.H.I.E.L.D., was recruited instead, and now views her life very differently as a result. And that's fine, but media often cop out when the time comes to actually show those very bad things, for fear that the protagonist will lose the ability to be sympathetic.

I don't want the whole movie to be a flashback, but I do want to see Nat doing very bad things in her past. Not things that were actually heroic but could look bad if you look at them from the right point of view. Not victimless crimes that she can still blame herself for like an overdramatic drama queen but really nobody got hurt except maybe somebody's money. I want her to hurt people. Because she's The Atoner, and that means she should rightly have some damn awful things to atone for.

"Age of Ultron" already laid the first cobblestone for copping out on her past by going, "Okay, she was one of the best and brightest of the Red Room BUUUUUUT even at an early age she didn't want to be and she only went through with the final trial because they made her do it! She never really wanted this, honest!"

And I don't like that. Because if you're going to tell me that the character is seeking redemption, then I expect them to have some serious crimes to seek redemption for, and not some shit like "Scott Lang committed VICTIMLESS CRIMES against SINISTER CORPORATIONS and only went to jail because the law is unfair to HEROES LIKE HIM!" Otherwise, they're just being overdramatic about nothing.

Seriously, "Red in Her Ledger" became such a f*cking meme that the comics wouldn't shut up about it for years after the first Avengers film came out even though it had nothing to do with her comic-book characterization. She quoted it verbatim in half her appearances and even had a whole story arc in her solo comic literally named "Red in Her Ledger". Those four words abruptly became her defining characteristic in the comics.

Marvel better not drop the ball on paying that off.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 14th 2019 at 7:52:02 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#94660: Jan 14th 2019 at 6:53:39 AM

> The biggest thing I want out of her film is the opportunity to see her hurt innocent people. That probably sounds f*cked, but hear me out.

See now I'm imagining Black Window spending the entire movie kicking puppies and kittens and being mean to people

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#94661: Jan 14th 2019 at 6:55:17 AM

[up]I also think that would be a pretty interesting take. It seems that all too often studios are afraid to go out and make the main character , if they’re a villain protagonist, a bad person, instead opting to make them edgy or something . It seems like movie producers have little faith in their audience when it comes to this stuff, even tho other media has shown audiences will eat it up (cough *breakjng bad )

Edited by Xopher001 on Jan 14th 2019 at 4:56:32 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94662: Jan 14th 2019 at 7:00:40 AM

It would be very interesting for her to start out as an unabashed bad guy before undergoing a Heel–Face Turn.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#94663: Jan 14th 2019 at 7:01:26 AM

Do I expect Black Widow to be R-rated, not really. I don't know that Marvel wants that for their brand. But would I be opposed to it, no not really as long as it's done well. Her profession, backstory, etc could easily lend itself to such a rating. Plus I'd hope that films like Logan, Deadpool, Kingsman, Atomic Blonde, etc would show them that R-rated comic book films can be profitable.

Plus if they're worried about that, Natasha not having any superpowers could keep the budget down a bit as well.

As for the sexual stuff, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it (it's kind of a spy movie trope) so long as it didn't feel gratuitous. And yeah, not rape/sexual violence stuff please.

Edited by Punisher286 on Jan 14th 2019 at 7:02:05 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94664: Jan 14th 2019 at 7:02:44 AM

Let's take her name... A Black Widow is an established term for a sexually aggressive female who kills her mates after she's gotten what she wants from them. So... make it R-rated and have her as the aggressor? That might be a bit much for Marvel, even in the context of Deadpool, where sex is mainly played for laughs or part of the background.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 14th 2019 at 10:05:17 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94665: Jan 14th 2019 at 7:17:37 AM

@Gaon I don't really want to get into this discussion in depth, but most of the things you said can be pretty much explained in one term: Plot induced stupidity/power creep. It's the same reason the Flash often struggles with his human rogue gallery, while fighting opponents in the vein of Superman in the next comic. It's the same with Spidey, he is shown struggling with street folk while also taking out people like Morlun, who are way above Fisk's or Cap's paygrade. Yes 'peak human' in terms of comic books are superhuman to our standards, but there is a reason why the term exists within the comic world, as 'superhumans' (by comic book standards) like Spider-Man are another notch above that.

Anyway I don't really wanna derail the thread further, usually I'm not even one to discuss fictional powerlevels^^ You can pm me if you wanna keep discussing.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94666: Jan 14th 2019 at 7:23:48 AM

I am not against exploring Black Widows dark past, but that can and should be handled in a flashback. The character itself should move forward, not backwards.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#94667: Jan 14th 2019 at 7:26:05 AM

@Tobias: That's actually the biggest reason I think God of War (PS 4) works so well: we've seen just how much of a monster Kratos was in his "peak", therefore we can better understand just why he feels it's so hard for him to redeem himself, why he's so hesitant to open up to his son about his past, and so on and so forth.

If they cop themselves out of showing just how terrible Natasha supposedly was in her Red Room days, then her story loses a lot of its impact and becomes just a watered down rehash of Bucky's character arc.

It's something that really pisses me off in your typical "Redemption Arc": they keep saying the main character was a horrible person, but always chicken out when it comes to actually showing them being a terrible person.

Edited by HailMuffins on Jan 14th 2019 at 12:26:42 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94668: Jan 14th 2019 at 8:22:27 AM

"Age of Ultron" already laid the first cobblestone for copping out on her past by going, "Okay, she was one of the best and brightest of the Red Room BUUUUUUT even at an early age she didn't want to be and she only went through with the final trial because they made her do it! She never really wanted this, honest!"
I have no idea where you got that from AOU, because I got the exact opposite, that after some hesitation, she ended up not caring who she hurt.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#94669: Jan 14th 2019 at 11:21:22 AM

I'd actually like to see Natasha and Nakia interact at some point. I feel like Natasha might admire the fact that Nakia has the "spy who is also compassionate and wants to better the world" thing down, because that's what Natasha wishes she could be but isn't sure if she fully can.

It'd be interesting.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94670: Jan 14th 2019 at 11:50:16 AM

I'd like for the antagonist to be someone who got hurt in the past by Natasha's villainous actions.

Like a relative of a target or something like that.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94671: Jan 14th 2019 at 11:53:14 AM

[up]Didn't occur to me, but you are right. That would be interesting...

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 14th 2019 at 11:53:29 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94672: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:04:32 PM

Rightoues revengeance.

Amusingly I recently finished reading Rurouni Kenshin & the main antagonist for the final arc was a victim from the protagonists past acts as an assassin coming back to avenge himself.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#94673: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:17:19 PM

Ah yes, Yukishiro Enishi. Probably Kenshin's most personal foe, and one with the most understandable motivation to boot. The fact that that arc has never been properly animated, either in an anime or OVA, is a travesty imo because it's really good.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94674: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:18:05 PM

And maybe not make him/her go overboard with her revenge (like Zemo did), make them stay sympathetic, in order to make everything morally ambiguous.

Edited by Forenperser on Jan 14th 2019 at 9:25:01 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#94675: Jan 14th 2019 at 12:20:10 PM

Yeah like don't have them blowing up meetings full of people who did nothing to them, or killing innocents as part of their plan, etc.


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