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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#94576: Jan 13th 2019 at 1:01:15 PM

I like that scene but not for the "he is not the gadgets" because it something I will see Tony startk pulling(he did in iron man 3) but because of the acting that sold me on it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94577: Jan 13th 2019 at 1:52:19 PM

Tom Holland is great! Considering how not sold I was on him in the beginning...until I saw his "physical" abilities, then I was "okay, I get why they picked him". And now I am all "wow, they struck gold! well done, Marvel, well done!"

Honestly the casting director of Marvel deserves more praise!!!!

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#94578: Jan 13th 2019 at 2:31:30 PM

Im still not sold on "if cap want to beat you he will", I mean Spider beat Winter soldier, who is cap but more agresive.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94579: Jan 13th 2019 at 2:43:51 PM

Cap has more experience. He managed to use Spider-man's strength against him. If he had continued to attack after he buried him under...however you call that thing in english...he could have seriously hurt Peter. He didn't want to, though.

And Bucky might be a trained killer, but he didn't use his best weapon in the fight. Remember, he is a sniper.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#94580: Jan 13th 2019 at 2:45:07 PM

> Remember, he is a sniper.

Only when he's brain washed by hydra

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94581: Jan 13th 2019 at 2:52:05 PM

No? He was a sniper in the war. Have you forgotten him rescuing Steve's life in the montage? And he is still using his gun in the battle of Wakanda. The Infinity Battle of Wakanda that is. He doesn't during the airport fight, because they don't want to kill anyone. At the end of the movie, he has his sniper riffle again.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 13th 2019 at 2:53:06 AM

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#94582: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:01:05 PM

Also, the one time Bucky and Peter fought, even puting aside the whole circumstance of neither side wanting to hurt the other, it was just Bucky fighting, not the Winter Soldier.

They have made it explicit via visuals that when Bucky is buried under the Winter Soldier persona, completely unrestricted, his efficiency jumps through the roof.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94583: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:05:07 PM

Honestly this line was more pandering to Cap than anything else, imO.

Unexperienced or not, the difference in strength, speed, agility and versaility is just way too big between Spider-Man and Cap (hint: Cap is not on the higher end of that comparison).

Just like in the comics.

I mean, that boat thing alone is WAY beyond Cap's paygrade.

Edited by Forenperser on Jan 13th 2019 at 12:05:21 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94584: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:10:29 PM

Cap would have most likely been more careful and taken out the criminals before they could destroy the ferry.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94585: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:11:36 PM

Cap’s got the training, skills, & experiance.

He can handle Vulture.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 13th 2019 at 3:11:43 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#94586: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:17:46 PM

> No? He was a sniper in the war. Have you forgotten him rescuing Steve's life in the montage?

I have because I don't recall Bucky being a sniper

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#94587: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:23:24 PM

Regarding Ned, he might actually become a villain down the road. He's Ned Leeds, known in the comics as one of the Hobgoblins, though he was brainwashed into it.

If they adapt the Hobgoblin mystery plot, Ned could be an interesting potential suspect for the Hobgoblin's true identity. I probably wouldn't want him to actually turn out to be the Hobgoblin, though.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94588: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:23:33 PM

Fighting skill is one of the most overrated things in my opinion, when it comes to power differences that big^^ I always like to link to this particular fight (Quicksilver vs Mister X) in that regard.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94589: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:25:28 PM

Though he got beaten by Quicksilver so he prolly wasn’t much of a warrior in the first place.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94590: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:32:26 PM

Yes, he is. He is one of the best fighters in the MU, in fact. The entire point of that fight was to show that it doesn't matter how much of a fighter you are when you are that hopelessly outclassed in terms of power.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94591: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:33:38 PM

Then again Quicksilver is a bit of a jobber so losing to him is pretty sad. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94592: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:35:36 PM

So is Thor, especially in Avengers books. Does that make losing to him also sad?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94593: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:40:33 PM

Pietro’s kinda of an arrogant prick so it’s worse for him.

While Thor is a lovable oaf.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94594: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:43:51 PM

That's....not really the point?^^

Anyway, jobbing is usually the product of bad writing.

This specific example was also just used to support my argument. Fighting skill is great, but it only helps somebody so much if the difference in power is just too great. If they are equal in power, then sure, it might give you an edge.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94595: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:46:30 PM

The difference in power isn't THAT big between Cap and Spider-Man, though.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94596: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:53:19 PM

Well like I said, I am not seeing Cap pulling off that Boat stunt. Not even close. And MCU Cap is already significantly stronger than Comic Cap, mind you.

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Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#94597: Jan 13th 2019 at 3:55:01 PM

Cap could have handled Vulture easily because Vulture isn’t especially powerful and Cap has far more combat experience than Spidey. He wouldn’t have needed to hold the boat together, because he’d have taken down the bad guys more effectively than Spidey did.

There are other situations where Spidey’s power would allow him to do things that Cap couldn’t.

Effectiveness is circumstantial. No one superhero is going to be better than all the others at everything.

Edited by Galadriel on Jan 13th 2019 at 6:57:30 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94598: Jan 13th 2019 at 4:00:55 PM

The boat did need to be held because Spidey bungled into causing its split.

Cap would most likely not bungle enough to cause that.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#94599: Jan 13th 2019 at 4:02:10 PM

I don't think the gulf between Spidey and Cap is wide enough for Spidey to win on brute strength alone. Spidey regularly has some measure of trouble fighting against villains like Hammerhead (a regular guy with a thick skull), Kingpin (a regular guy in theory, though comics adopted the "Spidey is just holding back" excuse, but that has always been questionable) AND Kraven who's basically a lower-capacity version of Captain America's "peak human" shtick. Even if you go with the ol' "oh he was just holding back!" excuse for Kingpin, Kraven has no such excuse. And that's in the comics, in the movies Spidey hadn't fought anyone even close to that weight class as of yet.

Cap is "peak human", which Marvel tends to interpret as he runs faster than Usain Bolt, lifts more weights than Lasha Takhadze and has faster reflexes than Bob Munden at worst and outright superhuman in all areas at best. The films seemed to have followed with the latter approach as we recurringly see him send regular people flying fifteen feet back with a kick like they're made of cardboard and leaps of some 50 feet up in the air and lands in water/concrete unharmed.

Taking into account we had war veteran Captain America fighting against "only fought some muggers at best" actual 15 year old Spider-Man, I don't see what's so outside the realm of probability for Cap to have a advantage.

You know that, in real life, knowing how generate leverage to pack into your punch makes it a lot more damaging than just sheer muscle mass. In fact, punching people with raw brute strength and excess of muscle mass but no technique is liable to make you shatter your wrist.

There's an old saying in Boxing that regular people punch with their fists, but boxers punch with their whole body, and that's the real difference between a punch that hurts you and one that blacks you out like a lamp.

Which is not to say Cap is leagues ahead of Spidey or anything, but I can see him having an advantage.

Edited by Gaon on Jan 13th 2019 at 4:03:05 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#94600: Jan 13th 2019 at 4:16:11 PM

Regarding Ned, he might actually become a villain down the road. He's Ned Leeds, known in the comics as one of the Hobgoblins, though he was brainwashed into it.

If they adapt the Hobgoblin mystery plot, Ned could be an interesting potential suspect for the Hobgoblin's true identity. I probably wouldn't want him to actually turn out to be the Hobgoblin, though.

This version of Ned is...a little bulky though. The hobgoblin would have to be someone with the same proportions in order to fully pull it off.

As for Spidey vs Cap, Pete's strength level has been all over the place as we all know. He's taken punches from the Hulk and normal dudes like Daredevil and been knocked equally silly by both, despite the fact that the former should wreck him something fierce (though less than most people who aren't Hulk level) and the latter shouldn't phase him that much (since Matt doesn't have Super-Strength).

I do believe that while Pete is stronger, faster, and has a good edge with his Spider-Sense, Cap is just good enough that he can still give Pete (especially a very inexperienced Pete) a rough time. He's years away from being able to fully use his powers to their fullest.

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