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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94301: Jan 11th 2019 at 9:12:53 AM

So...top ten best moments (not quotes, that would be a different list) by character? In no particular order?

Cap: His Mulan scene, jumping on the Granada, his triumphant return, his goodbye and then waking up in the future, the elevator fight, the bridge fight with the Bucky revelation, the helicopter scene, him giving up the shield, him turning up to rescue the other Avengers....

aaaand I just realized that none of them is from any of the Avengers movies...hopefully Endgame will correct that….

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#94302: Jan 11th 2019 at 9:15:08 AM

Iron Man 3 was a bit of a mess for a few reasons. The whole plot with the veterans blowing themselves up was confusing and even vaguely offensive. The Mandarin reveal was just plain a bad idea because it trades a cool villain for a rather lame and generic one-and it wasn't very shocking either (I knew Killian was up to something). Also, while it's petty I don't like that they removed the Arc Reactor from his heart.

Leviticus 19:34
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#94303: Jan 11th 2019 at 9:20:35 AM

I feel like Iron man 1 was them getting lucky with formula that worked,and instead of making better movies they tried to repeat it

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94304: Jan 11th 2019 at 9:28:48 AM

as I never watched any Shane Black movies other than IM 3, and I honestly don't plan to
Gasp! For shame! You should at least watch Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and The Nice Guys, since they are legitimately great movies.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 11th 2019 at 9:29:07 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#94305: Jan 11th 2019 at 10:12:37 AM

Tony doesn't just make a stun gun; he creates homemade tranquilizer darts, a homemade taser glove, and homemade grenades.

Were those tranq darts? I always thought he was shooting a nail gun or something. He hits one guy multiple times in the chest and the dude falls into a fountain, and then Tony drops one of his makeshift grenades in to finish him off - which would be a really odd way to cap off tranqing a person.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 11th 2019 at 11:12:55 AM

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AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#94306: Jan 11th 2019 at 10:42:59 AM

Pretty sure it was a nail gun. Doubt he'd bother to make a concoction for tranquilizing his enemies with the resources he had available.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94307: Jan 11th 2019 at 10:51:01 AM

Besides, real tranquilizers take as long as several minutes to have full effect. Instant Sedation is a Hollywood myth.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 11th 2019 at 1:51:12 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94308: Jan 11th 2019 at 10:54:52 AM

But he also definitely makes some tranqs — we see syringes with purple liquid in them and I can't think of anything else they can be.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94309: Jan 11th 2019 at 10:59:44 AM

Poison? It's far easier to come up with a toxic mix of chemicals from whatever's lying around then a mix that provides fast, non-harmful sedation.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 11th 2019 at 2:00:19 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94310: Jan 11th 2019 at 11:02:01 AM

Possibly. But then again, we see him using a number of non-lethal ways, so that's also kind of weird. "Hey, let me taze this guy and knock out this guy and then POISON THIS MOTHERFUCKER."

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94311: Jan 11th 2019 at 11:07:09 AM

I guess we can chalk it up to artistic license. Tony is so good that he can whip up an instant sedative from whatever's lying around.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94312: Jan 11th 2019 at 11:14:29 AM

I think the real question is — where's his sandwich?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#94313: Jan 11th 2019 at 11:40:12 AM

Possibly. But then again, we see him using a number of non-lethal ways, so that's also kind of weird. "Hey, let me taze this guy and knock out this guy and then POISON THIS MOTHERFUCKER."

Because those ways work. His "tazer" is an electroshock glove, so that he can grab someone and electrocute the f*ck out of them rather than try to overpower or strangle them.

Tony's trying to get into the building. I don't think he's overly concerned with whether the guys he takes out in the process of getting there live or die. Just that they're down.

And those christmas ornament explosives are pretty blatantly shrapnel bombs, so we see him using more lethal ways too.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 11th 2019 at 12:40:54 PM

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94314: Jan 11th 2019 at 11:51:16 AM

So...best moments of Tony...again in no particular order…

The Funvee scene (great short-hand characterisation), his "I am Ironman" moments, the skydiving scene, him sitting in the Donut, the wormhole scene, the suitcase suit up, more or less every scene he has with spiderman (yes, I know, kind of cheating, but those are so many good moments, how to chose?), the "he killed my mom" scene (such great acting), him nearly getting Cap to sign the accords (again, great acting), and his confrontation with Thanos.

I also enjoy him interacting with Harley, btw, even if it is a blatant target demographic addition.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94315: Jan 11th 2019 at 11:56:42 AM

Tony's battle with Thanos may be one of my favorite pure action scenes in the whole MCU. It's certainly in the top five.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 11th 2019 at 2:57:02 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#94316: Jan 11th 2019 at 12:09:17 PM

@alliterator: "Hey, let me taze this guy and knock out this guy and then POISON THIS MOTHERFUCKER."

This reminds me of my Deus Ex: Human Revolution playthroughs (where I'm highly inconsistent about use of lethal force).

Tony is pretty indifferent to lethal force in the movie in general. The movie rather notably averted Never Say "Die" for me-Stark threatens to kill several people throughout the movie.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Jan 11th 2019 at 12:11:10 PM

Leviticus 19:34
RedM Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
#94317: Jan 11th 2019 at 12:26:44 PM

I can buy the MCU heroes being okay with killing in combat situations (except for Spider-Man.) To me it would honestly be more jarring if you had them pointing out that they were non-lethally taking people down in the middle of the fight.

The very best, like no one ever was. Check out my Spider-Man fanfic here! [1]
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94318: Jan 11th 2019 at 1:17:59 PM

I can't think of any character in the MCU who operates on a strict no-killing rule. They always try to use non-lethal force, but it's not always possible or feasible. Part of it is the fact that hand-to-hand combat is more cinematic, and viewers tend to assume that fisticuffs are less lethal than guns and bombs. Of course, when you are a super-soldier, a Hulk, or wearing power armor, that rule doesn't really hold.

The Punched Across the Room trope is blatantly unrealistic for several reasons, but the applicable one here is that if a human body were actually struck by enough force to send them flying, it would be more than enough to instantly kill them, or at least fatally wound.

Also, this. [down] But Tony is fighting terrorists, which makes them acceptable targets for lethal force by our cultural rules. I suppose.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 11th 2019 at 4:21:24 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#94319: Jan 11th 2019 at 1:19:57 PM

Tony's been comfortable with killing people since day 1. That iconic superhero scene in Gulmira that really set the stage for what the MCU's action sequences would be? You might get away with saying that Tony's shoulder-launchers were tranqing people due to the Bloodless Carnage. There's artistic license going on in that scene one way or the other.

But nobody survived the Tank Missile and it'd be silly to suggest otherwise. Those guys be dead.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 11th 2019 at 2:20:39 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94320: Jan 11th 2019 at 1:20:36 PM

It helps that in Marvel comics, the heroes almost never have had strict no-killing rules like Superman or Batman do. Superman's and Batman's no-killing rules are also so ingrained in their character that changing them will cause fan uproar. Captain America, on the other hand, was literally a soldier during wartime, so has probably killed plenty of enemy soldiers.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 11th 2019 at 1:21:05 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#94321: Jan 11th 2019 at 1:25:17 PM

> I can't think of any character in the MCU who operates on a strict no-killing rule

Don't think Spiderman is keen on killing people,so while he's not bound by a code he's not exactly known for a high body count

Edited by Ultimatum on Jan 11th 2019 at 9:25:34 AM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#94322: Jan 11th 2019 at 1:33:42 PM

The comics go back and forth on killing Depending on the Writer. Some writers like to have the Avengers make a big fuss about how AVENGERS DON'T KILL PEOPLE and IF YOU KILL PEOPLE THEN YOU'RE BAD. It's dumb.

Some writers even go to some pretty great lengths to rationalize it. Like the guy who wrote that the Hulk is doing complex mathematics in his head all the time in order to precisely calculate the exact trajectory of every piece of debris when he smashes something, thereby preventing any living human being from ever being harmed by his rampages.

I think we've even had a writer try to assert that Captain America never killed anyone during WWII, but I can't for the life of me recall when or where.

Sometimes this dichotomy is deliberate. "Operation: Galactic Storm" featured the Supreme Intelligence, high ruler of the Kree, committing a horrific act of genocide against his own people in the hopes of kickstarting their evolution. Some bullshit about how the Kree have stopped evolving and are languishing genetically or some shit because their lives are too easy, so the Supreme Intelligence decided that the collapse of their civilization after a galaxy-wide nuclear holocaust would cause them to start evolving again.

After the Avengers failed to stop the genocide, Captain America was like, "Well, time to pack it in and go home. We tried, everyone." But Iron Man was like, "F*ck you, we need to make the Supreme Intelligence pay for this." Cap was the team's leader but Iron Man pulled rank as a founding Avenger (in the comics, Cap actually isn't one, only joining the team a few issues after their formation). The Avengers wound up dividing along lines of who you personally think is right, and went on to become the East and West Coast Avengers for a while.

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94323: Jan 11th 2019 at 1:40:49 PM

[up] With "Operation: Galactic Storm," it wasn't that "killing is bad," it was "deliberate execution of an unarmed enemy is bad." Iron Man and his half of the Avengers executed the Supreme Intelligence (well, okay, it turned out he wasn't dead, but they thought he was).

As for things like the Hulk...I can understand their reasoning, that if Hulk/Banner was suddenly responsible for a whole bunch of deaths, it wouldn't be that much fun writing for him anymore. They actually do address this in the recent Immortal Hulk run — the Hulk's rampages may not kill people, but they do cause enormous damage which is shown as horrific from a bystander's perspective and later on, the Hulk deliberately kills someone (he was a Mad Scientist who had dissected the Hulk, but still).

My favorite "no killing" moment, however, was when Bucky became Captain America and he carried around a gun. Sure, he wasn't going to just kill people...but nobody mentioned that he couldn't shoot someone's kneecaps.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 11th 2019 at 1:41:45 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#94324: Jan 11th 2019 at 1:43:25 PM

They actually do address this in the recent Immortal Hulk run — the Hulk's rampages may not kill people, but they do cause enormous damage which is shown as horrific from a bystander's perspective

Oh, cool! I fell out of reading comics like a year or two ago - back when the "Captain America Nazi" stuff was still kicking off and building up to the event.

I'm glad to hear this, because this is literally a Hulk story I wanted to write years ago. It was going to be called "No One Ever Died", in reference to the oft-repeated claim that no one has ever died in a Hulk rampage, and it was going to be about the devastating effects of collateral damage ruining human lives despite not technically ending them.

It's nice to hear someone did get around to writing that story.

My favorite "no killing" moment, however, was when Bucky became Captain America and he carried around a gun. Sure, he wasn't going to just kill people...but nobody mentioned that he couldn't shoot someone's kneecaps.

People die from that.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 11th 2019 at 2:47:23 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#94325: Jan 11th 2019 at 1:45:55 PM

On the flip side, I’ve always thought the ease in which MCU Tony kills simply because he decides the people he’s up against need to die, and the way he has enough money to make anyone who have objections to his attitude fuck off, make him unsettling if not come off as outright sociopathic at times.

Especially around Iron Man 2, where the 2000’s era escapism around Tony was largely defined by the ability to kill whoever he wants (but he’s killing America’s enemies, so fuck yeah!) while maintaining a cowboy lifestyle that nobody could slow down but himself.

It’s worth noting that the films have gotten away from it somewhat, too, and are subtly Lighter and Softer on that front. Ultron makes sure to let us know that the guys who got shot by his signature target painting bullets are alive. The human villain of that movie is taken out offscreen by the other villain. Cap hasn’t shot anybody in ages, and scenes with our heroes attacking mooks are no longer shot with the “they died just offscreen” lens, and more with the general action movie “they got taken out, use your imagination” lens. The only explicit hero kills are dramatic rather than casual, now, and several of the headliners don’t kill humans period.

That said, the Russo’s - who have never had a problem with the heroes killing - did direct everyone as not being against it in Infinity War. Even Peter Parker doesn’t think twice about having a kill to his name there.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 11th 2019 at 1:48:16 AM


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