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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94101: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:26:49 PM

Of four heroes killed in Infinity War outside the Snap, three are male. You might as well ask why male deaths count less than female deaths towards viewer outrage if you're going to descend down that rabbit hole. Hell, Wanda and Vision are an intentional comparison to Thanos and Gamora, with the genders reversed to boot.

Why does the Soul Stone uniquely require a sacrifice? Narrativium.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 3:30:28 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94102: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:30:58 PM

[up]Word.

Gamora wasn't the only one who was killed, and not even in the most brutal way.

I mean really, I think we can all agree that her death wasn't just pure shock value, right? It served a purpose. And it didn't make her irrelevant after her demise either.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#94103: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:32:08 PM

Time is a flat circle.

And the male characters die fighting, while Gamora gets damseled, goes on Thanos's exposition tour with him, and gets a Disney Death where she can't even really fight back. Again, not that there aren't reasons, not that it doesn't make sense based on the plot as written, but that's kind of why the examination needs to go deeper than just the one scene. It's about how we got here.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94104: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:34:32 PM

I mean Quill is just a self-conscious little motherfucker.

He was just pitiful with Thor, I’m surprised he’s supposed to be in his 30’s.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 10th 2019 at 12:34:43 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94105: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:35:21 PM

Well what do you define as 'fighting'? The attempt or actually doing damage?

Gamora tried fighting too. Several times, in fact. Thanos was just too strong. Just like Loki tried attacking the Titan several times, to no avail. And he ended up being killed in a far more gruesome manner.

Hell, I'd even say if we are looking for a fridging incident, Loki's death probably comes closest. He really was killed just for the heck of it, and in front of a loved one too.

Edited by Forenperser on Jan 10th 2019 at 9:35:45 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94106: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:35:48 PM

I don't see that written anywhere on the page.
"On that site, Simone compiled a list of instances of female comic book characters who were killed off as a plot device." If Gail Simone, the creator of the trope, uses that as the criteria, then that's what I'm using.

The fact is, the main point of fridging is causing the hero anguish.
It doesn't have to be the main point, only an outcome. And Gamora's death absolutely caused anguish in both Thanos and Quill.

If it is any consolation, I used to think of the trope the same way. I remember 1 year back or so, when Tess from Agents of Shield was killed.
The only reason Tess wasn't a friding, though, is because they almost immediately brought her back to life. And she got a pretty good character arc about it, too.

Gamora has more than most, as she comes to the realization that her father truly loves her, even if it's a warped fashion.
That's...not a character arc. She doesn't start off the film going "Thanos doesn't love me" and then learn that he does in a significant way. She learns he loves her at the exact moment when she has to die, so she's more concerned with stopping Thanos from getting the Soul Stone than actually having any sort of character development.

Of four heroes killed in Infinity War outside the Snap, three are male.
But of the four killed, none of them had the kind of angst shown by Thanos and Quill that Gamora's did. Thor talks about how both his best friend and brother died, but he's still acting chipper (even if it is an act). Vision is killed by Wanda and then by Thanos, but there isn't even enough time before Wanda dies herself.

Gamora is the only character killed off who gets two male characters angsting over her death (and one character angsting so much that he messes up the dang plan, Peter).

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94107: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:39:14 PM

I really feel like you're cherry-picking here to justify your opinion. If any female character dies and male characters feel anguish, is that Fridging? So writers are only allowed to kill female characters in inconsequential ways? You have not defined any standard by which a female death is not this trope, which makes it useless as a tool for criticism.

Heck, Thor spends half the film angsting about Loki's death. He was utterly ineffectual against Thanos. How is this any different? Half of the dynamic between Wanda and Vision is the terror, followed by the realization, that she will have to kill him to save the universe.

Gamora goes down fighting. She actually kills Thanos in the Reality Stone hallucination, and then attempts to kill herself at the last second. She has agency to the very end. Her every single action towards him is defiance. If that's fridging by your definition, then you have defined it out of existence.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 3:43:32 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94108: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:43:41 PM

If any female character dies and male characters feel anguish, is that Fridging?
No, that's not it. The character has to be used as a plot device, i.e. they aren't killed because of something they did. If Thanos killed Gamora because she was trying to kill him that wouldn't be fridging. If she died due to Heroic Sacrifice, again, not fridging.

But Gamora dies because of something that is completely out of her control. Her death isn't part of a character arc, it's just a plot device to move the plot forward and cause male characters to angst. Specifically: Peter has to angst over her death in order to cause the plan to go awry. Making her death even more of a plot device.

Again: if her death was about her, that would be fine. But it isn't — it's about Thanos and Peter and the Soul Stone. And causing angst. Which is what makes it a fridging.

Gamora goes down fighting.
She doesn't, actually. Everything she does is completely undone by Thanos easily. Her "killing" him was an illusion he made. Hell, he taunted Quill into shooting her knowing that he had turned his gun into bubbles. And he even prevents her from killing herself, turning the knife into bubbles. She has no chance of fighting back or escaping, no agency at all.

Heck, Thor spends half the film angsting about Loki's death.
Again: he doesn't act like it. Even though we, the audience, can tell he's mourning, Thor still tries to act upbeat.

Plus, Loki gets a cool line before he dies and, ostensibly, dies because of what he did, rather than because he was a plot device.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 10th 2019 at 12:45:07 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94109: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:44:48 PM

Loki has no chance against Thanos. Heimdall has no chance against Thanos. Vision has no chance against Thanos. Again, you are defining this in a way that makes it an unavoidable double standard.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#94110: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:45:00 PM

This is exactly why I'm trying not to talk about it terms of fridging. I think the term is too contentious to use in any kind of meaningful way at this point. There isn't one generally accepted definition or set of criteria.

[up] and @Forenpenser It's about framing. Loki and Heimdall die on a battlefield, in media res, with the Asgardians having attacked and been defeated by Thanos. Loki is still trying for the sneak attack when he dies, but clever or strong as the characters might be, there's no end to Thanos' might and prowess. There's an active quality to the scene — Loki dies on the offensive. Gamora, meanwhile, has been dragged around in Thanos' shadow, already been defeated, and her death is somewhat peremptory and inevitable, it's a more passive scene for her. She struggles, but the way she's simply picked up and cast down emphasizes her helplessness more than it does Thanos's strength.

There is a double-standard — a long-standing double-standard in terms of how male and female characters are already portrayed. It's not something that can be avoided, not if the intent is to change it. Inertia is powerful thing, and it's easy to fall back into old patterns.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 10th 2019 at 2:02:56 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94111: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:46:48 PM

So, if Thanos had straight-up murdered Gamora on Knowhere, that would be better? I fail to understand this line of reasoning. Her death is for one reason and one reason alone: she knows where the Soul Stone is. It has nothing to do with her gender.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94112: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:46:52 PM

Loki has no chance against Thanos. Heimdall has no chance against Thanos.
Loki and Heimdall were killed because of their own choices. Heimdall sent the Hulk back to Earth and was stabbed because of it, Loki tried to kill Thanos and was killed because of it. Neither were killed due to something else completely.

Vision has no chance against Thanos.
Vision is the only one I consider on par with Gamora, but, again, there isn't even enough time for Wanda to mourn before she's dead, too.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 10th 2019 at 12:48:05 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94113: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:47:42 PM

Gamora is killed because she concealed the location of the Soul Stone from Thanos. (Secondarily, because the Guardians choose to go to Knowhere in the first place, which I maintain is an incredibly dumb decision.) Keep digging, I'll wait.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 3:49:37 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94114: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:48:51 PM

Her death is for one reason and one reason alone: she knows where the Soul Stone is. It has nothing to do with her gender.
She doesn't die because she knows where the Soul Stone is. In fact, she tells him where the Soul Stone is. She dies because the Soul Stone requires a sacrifice. And I didn't even mention her gender, just that her death was a plot device and still is.

Hell, Thanos probably would have left her alive if the Soul Stone didn't require a sacrifice, thus proving that the only reason she died was that Thanos could get the Stone and him and Peter could angst about it. Again: plot device.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 10th 2019 at 12:49:26 PM

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#94115: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:49:51 PM

Seems like Fox’s Silver Surfer movie might become a MCU film.

Edited by ManOfSin on Jan 10th 2019 at 3:55:36 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94116: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:49:59 PM

[up][up]Everything is a plot device. You're defining your terms so broadly as to be meaningless.

Fuck it, I'm done with this conversation. Keep feeling aggrieved if it helps you.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 3:50:39 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94117: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:52:51 PM

[up][up] Huh interesting.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#94118: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:52:53 PM

... Can we not do the mass quoting thing again?

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#94119: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:53:37 PM

@Man Of Sin Well, well. By definition, the man with the big hat can't be far behind, right?

Yeah, the whole flurry of quoteblocks thing seems like the surest way to turn a conversation hostile.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 10th 2019 at 1:55:35 PM

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#94120: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:59:00 PM

Here is what I’m referring to.

I saw another video with Kevin Feige saying that he is looking forward to talking about it.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94121: Jan 10th 2019 at 1:00:33 PM

If Silver Surfer joins the MCU, Galactus won't be far behind. Does that mean that the F4 might come with, or are they keeping them separate?

We still don't know what the major threat-arc of the MCU will be in phase 4 and beyond, but it would be pretty cool to establish Galactus as a Greater-Scope Villain that will have to be defeated at some point, much like Thanos for phases 1-3.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 4:05:45 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94122: Jan 10th 2019 at 1:02:11 PM

Everything is a plot device.
No, there are things that are purely plot devices and then there are things that are connected to character arcs. Plot and character are two essential parts of any piece of fiction — you can definitely focus on one more than the other, but generally, you want a good mixture of both.

For instance: Loki's death was actually the culmination of his multi-film character arc. He was shown handing the Tesseract to Thanos (like he had originally been tasked to do in The Avengers) before betraying him and trying to stab him (as his own character had changed in Ragnarok to be less self-serving). It's a nice mixture of character-based storytelling (Loki dies because of what he is and what he did) and plot-based storytelling (Loki dies because Thor needs to get revenge).

Gamora, however, is entirely plot-based storytelling. Her death has no meaning to her own character arc — the arc that saw her leave Thanos, join with the Guardians, and forgive (and ask for forgiveness) from Nebula. She doesn't die because of any of those things. She doesn't die because she betrayed Thanos or because she tried to kill Thanos. She dies because the Soul Stone needed a sacrifice and that's it. And that's purely a plot-based storytelling decision, which ignores Gamora's own choices and character arc for the needs of the plot.

Think about it: if Gamora had done anything different, would the outcome have changed? No, Thanos still would have sacrificed her, because that's what was needed for the plot and not the character.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 10th 2019 at 1:03:04 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#94123: Jan 10th 2019 at 1:02:11 PM

Cue a The Big Short parody but with the Fantastic Four.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#94124: Jan 10th 2019 at 1:07:24 PM

Anyone remember Rise of the Silver Surfer?It was released in 2007 as sequel,I've not seen it but I recall seeing the first one

have a listen and have a link to my discord server

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