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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#94051: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:51:13 AM

Uh- she’s fridged for Thanos’ story, not Quill’s. Which is what pisses me off. Vision gets to die his way, even if it’s futile. Loki and Heimdall died after an act of defiance. Gamora? She’s held prisoner, then flung off a cliff for Thanos’ manpain. I hate it. “The abusive parent really DID love his kid! That’s why murdering her worked!”

Haaaaaaate.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94052: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:52:18 AM

Thanos kills his own daughter as a sacrifice to obtain the Soul Stone. Hate it if you like, but it sure as hell establishes both the degree of his motivation and the degree of his villainy.

I don't think anyone is supposed to take away from that scene that Thanos is a good parent or that he's doing the right thing.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 11:52:50 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#94053: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:53:43 AM

But it doesn’t. We already know he’s obsessed with his mission and a horrible person. Killing Gamora isn’t an escalation. It’s completely in character.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#94054: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:55:54 AM

Before this he very clearly enjoyed everything he was doing to get the stones. This was the first time he had to do something he would greatly prefer not to do to get a stone.

Disgusted, but not surprised
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#94055: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:58:01 AM

Gamora's death is fantastic because it's tragic. Not sad yet fulfilling because she got to do some heroic sacrifice and go out on her own terms, but a true tragedy. She revealed the location against her will to protect her sister, then she was thrown off a cliff by her father figure. A father figure she hates with all her heart, but whom genuinely loves her, in his own twisted way. In fact, his love is the entire reason the sacrifice happened, and the only reason it worked to get him the Soul Stone.

You're not supposed to see Gamora's death and feel satisfied, you're supposed to feel like her character got robbed of her life unfairly, that is the point of a true tragedy. Gamora's death wasn't just "to make Quill and Thanos feel bad". She was the viewpoint character of the scene, when Thanos made his decision, we were supposed to be just as horrified as Gamora was.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#94056: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:58:37 AM

Gonna repost this link to Film Crit Hulk regarding Thanos and Gamora. Long story short, Thanos killing her falls flat for FCH and me because we have no idea why Thanos allegedly loves Gamora. It’s supposed to be painful for him, but why is it?

As much as I may care for the character who is being eliminated, I have literally no idea why the other character is making this choice, nor why he even loves this character in the first place. I just know that he “does.” And so, what should feel truly devastating can’t help but come off as half-motivated, somewhat perfunctory, and somehow empty.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jan 10th 2019 at 8:59:45 AM

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#94057: Jan 10th 2019 at 9:01:10 AM

Again she still got dragged around as a prisoner for most of the film, then flung off of a cliff so that her dad and boyfriend could feel sad. Sorry, but that's a classic fridging and an insulting way to write off her character (if she stays dead).

Especially given that even Loki got to at least try to go out fighting, and Yondu in GOTG 2 had agency in his own death as well (which is why his death was FAR more emotional than Gamora's for me, it felt more earned).

As for Quill's screwup in the end, well that doesn't mean much to me because all it does is show that he learned NOTHING from what happened with Ego, which doesn't make him particularly compelling as a character.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94058: Jan 10th 2019 at 9:11:11 AM

"Didn't go out fighting?" Gamora tries to kill herself to prevent this: twice, in fact. Thanos is so powerful that any such attempt is pointless, but to say she has no agency is kind of insulting.

If anything, the original error is that the Guardians go to Knowhere to begin with, in the insane belief that four relative normals could somehow beat Thanos. That's what sets off this whole chain of events.

The main concession I will make is that the tragedy seems to work in part because she's a woman — a male character in the same position wouldn't get as much sympathy from the audience. This is a persistent problem in film-making but not something Infinity War can change all by itself.

However, what gets Gamora killed is not her sex or gender, but that she knows the location of the Soul Stone. She's doomed from that moment.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 12:15:48 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#94059: Jan 10th 2019 at 9:11:29 AM

It doesn't have to be either/or. The scene kind of works, it's well-performed and does deepen Thanos's character and solidify the notion that he is, on some weird level, capable of feeling for the others, even as he remains an hemicidal monster. But the implications are still unfortunate — it still turns Gamora into more of a plot device than a character in her own story, and that's been an ongoing problem for her.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 10th 2019 at 10:30:26 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#94060: Jan 10th 2019 at 9:13:37 AM

All things considered, her death had meaning. Now maybe it wasn't a very satisfying or good meaning, but her death meant something.

A meaningless death imho would be more like if she got hit by a car or something and died on the spot in a completely random accident.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#94061: Jan 10th 2019 at 9:23:09 AM

Yondu's death and funeral is the opposite of Gamora's death in a disturbing amount of ways. There, it was the abusive-ish father figure showing that deep down he did care about Peter and ultimately gave his own life just so he could live. He channeled his self-loathing and acknowledgement of his mistakes into taking advantage of this very last chance to do something right. It helped that the entire funeral scene was beautifully done and shot, with some great lines from Peter and Rocket. It ALSO helps that we get that little scene of Gamora admitting she did Nebula wrong when they were younger and hugging her, deeming the two of them sisters and offering her a chance to stay and help out girls who've been in the same boat (it's denied but hey, it's the thought that counts, and Nebula intends to help them in her, uh, own way). I love this scene and this ending in general, I really do. Okay, rant over sorry.

Thinking about it, it's not exactly lost on me how much I could compare Got G 2 with Logan Coco with how they handle father figures, and I'm not just saying that because I think they're all wonderful movies from 2017 that left a strong mark on me with their emotional moments. Unfortunately I'm too tired to compare them that extensively.

And yes, I spent a while typing that and got [nja]'d many times. Oops!

Edited by AyyItsMidnight on Jan 10th 2019 at 9:27:22 AM

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#94062: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:04:33 AM

I disagree entirely that Gamora's death turns her from a character with her own story into a plot device. From IN-UNIVERSE, Thanos making the decision to sacrifice her IS using her more as a thing with emotional investment to him than a person. As far as the movie goes, Thanos going to those lengths and making that decision is supposed to be horrifying to both Gamora and the audience.

We, as the audience, are supposed to empathize with Gamora in that scene. We are not seeing the scene from the perspective of Thanos going "I have to sacrifice something I love, well I love Gamora, so I'll do that". We are seeing it from the perspective of Gamora going "Does he even love anything? If so, what the hell does he- oh shit it's Gamora". Gamora is the viewpoint character in that scene, and we're supposed to be just as horrified at Thanos' being willing to sacrifice her as she is.

It's not some shallow, off-screen fridging that only serves to make Thanos and Peter Quill sad, it's Gamora's story from beginning to her end. It starts with her getting Peter to promise to kill her to keep Thanos from getting the Soul Stone and him failing, despite trying to go through with it. It continues with Gamora and Thanos arguing and Gamora being forced to give him the location in exchange for Nebula's life. It ends with Gamora thinking she's won, that Thanos is the victim of karma, that he can't get the Soul Stone because he doesn't love anyone, only for the tables to turn when she realizes that she's the victim here because he does.

It's a very well-written tragic story within the confines of the movie Infinity War, and it serves to cap off Gamora's prior character arc as it relates to her rejection and hatred of her family and her relationship with Nebula. I'm sure this isn't the end of her, either, since we saw her inside the Soul Stone at the end of Infinity War. I predict that a big part of Endgame will be dedicated to Gamora and Thanos talking in the Soul Stone and her breaking him down to build up to the finale where he loses.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 10th 2019 at 11:06:30 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#94063: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:10:03 AM

Like I said, it doesn't have to be either/or. It also isn't judged entirely within the confines of the story it's telling — all media exists in context. If it doesn't bother you, great. All I'm saying is that as a criticism, it's not unjust.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 10th 2019 at 11:10:11 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94064: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:17:57 AM

Well I personally sympathized more with Thanos in that scene, as strange as it may sound - for the very simple reason that I find Gamora as a character quite unengaging.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#94065: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:19:47 AM

Yeah I'm waiting to see how that plotline wraps-up before I totally judge Gamora's death but as it stands right now, it's really bad.

Of course it could end with Gamora driving out of the afterlife on Ghost Rider's motorcycle and stabbing Thanos in the face.

Edited by LordVatek on Jan 10th 2019 at 1:21:00 PM

This song needs more love.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#94066: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:25:42 AM

I liked Gamora's scenes with Nebula in GOTG 2. I like what we see of her before she joins up with the Guardians and gets saddled with the nagging girlfriend role. I like Zoe Saldana and I think she could do more if the writing gave her more to do. So as much as I like IW and some of the things it did with Quill and Thanos alike, I do feel like it's still coming at Gamora's expense.

I do have hopes that her and Nebula will get more to do in Endgame, I don't think there's anything preventing it, but I don't know if that will make up for those other issues — I don't know if it should, I don't know that it needs to. You can still like something while criticizing parts of it.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 10th 2019 at 12:47:10 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94067: Jan 10th 2019 at 11:30:52 AM

still coming at Gamora's expense.

Well, duh. She dies in the film. The choice of her as the sacrifice is derived inescapably from her role as Thanos' daughter, and its impact is magnified by her relationships with Quill and Nebula. We wouldn't care about her so much if she were just a background character with no development.

This is the exact opposite of Stuffed into the Fridge, where an undeveloped character is killed to add drama to the MC's life. Gamora's death is the lynchpin of the film: a key moment around which everything else pivots. It's perhaps the most powerful and significant on-screen death in the MCU. We are supposed to be enraged by it.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 2:39:21 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#94068: Jan 10th 2019 at 11:38:51 AM

I didn't say it was Stuffed into the Fridge, and I did say that I thought it worked pretty well narratively, in the context of the story being told. But that can still be true while still feeling like it's an unfortunate use of the character. As I keep saying, it's not one or the other. Both can apply — they're not exactly the same thing.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#94069: Jan 10th 2019 at 11:39:25 AM

The scene plays the same music as Wanda heroically killing Vision. So it’s seemingly constructed as if to say “feel sorry for Thanos too” even though it’s canon he’s just a bully with an unhealthy fixation on an old grudge.

Also, Stuffed in the Fridge does not require the victim be underdeveloped. Barbara Gordon and The Killing Joke is a famous example of the trope, in which a developed character is assaulted and causes central impact for the rest of the story... but sidelines all of her own pain.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jan 10th 2019 at 11:40:09 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94070: Jan 10th 2019 at 11:41:26 AM

Well, what I will say is that if Quill comes back but Gamora doesn't, I'll be pretty angry. Neither of them deserves that. I do like the idea that she'll continue speaking to Thanos via the Soul Stone, driving him to regret his choices further. Remember the ending — the moment of the Snap — when he sees her younger self and she asks him, "What did it cost?" The look on her face... dear lord. There is no greater condemnation.

So it’s seemingly constructed as if to say “feel sorry for Thanos too” even though it’s canon he’s just a bully with an unhealthy fixation on an old grudge.

I took from the scene that we're supposed to feel sorry for Gamora, not Thanos. That said, there's been a lot of controversy over the portrayal of Thanos as even the slightest bit sympathetic. Remember how Netflix changed the description of Infinity War twice? People got really mad at the idea that he might be considered by some to have a valid point. He's a very complex character, and we shouldn't be distracted by the fact that he is also abusive as well as psychotically genocidal.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 2:46:19 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#94071: Jan 10th 2019 at 11:44:15 AM

The Avengers can get Thanos on his knees, but by god I want Gamora and Nebula to be the ones to end him. I want the children to finish their abuser. If Nebula sacrifices herself or dies on her own terms in the process of successfully killing Thanos, THAT would be meaningful and cathartic.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94072: Jan 10th 2019 at 11:46:20 AM

Nebula lucky she’s not dead at all.

She was too weak to kill Thanos.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94073: Jan 10th 2019 at 11:47:04 AM

[up][up] No argument there. If anyone deserves to deliver the finishing blow to Thanos, it's those two.

[up] So was everybody. Not like Nebula is any less successful than the others: by Thanos' own admission, she nearly succeeded in assassinating him.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 2:47:49 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#94074: Jan 10th 2019 at 11:48:04 AM

TBH, while I absolutely want Nebula and Gamora to finish Thanos off, having to plow through 4 hours of him being an abusive dick to them throughout for 20 seconds of payoff would feel more exploitative to me than cathartic. :/

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94075: Jan 10th 2019 at 11:49:37 AM

She always struck me as always gonna be failing in her endeavors.

Thanos wasn’t exactly wrong when he called her weak.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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