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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#94026: Jan 9th 2019 at 9:07:37 PM

IIRC, there hasn't been any confirmation about when the Disney Plus shows will take place in the MCU. They could be prequels, or they could take place after Avengers: Endgame. So, don't necessarily take this as confirmation that these characters will survive just yet.

Although it's quite likely some might.

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#94027: Jan 9th 2019 at 9:11:55 PM

It's pretty easily to glean that Wanda, Sam and Bucky are coming back. Loki and Vision are more up in the air (I'm in the camp that hopes the former and to a lesser extent the latter stay dead but that's neither here nor there).

Edited by AyyItsMidnight on Jan 9th 2019 at 9:13:24 AM

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94028: Jan 9th 2019 at 9:55:55 PM

Vision is definitely coming back. Loki is more up in the air, since he died in the beginning of the film, but I have a feeling that he'll come back, too (hopefully as Kid Loki, because kid Loki is awesome).

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#94029: Jan 9th 2019 at 11:10:34 PM

Much as I love Heimdall, he and Loki really shouldn't come back. No one prior to Gamora's sacrifice should. Honestly, not even Gamora.

TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#94030: Jan 9th 2019 at 11:24:33 PM

Sam and Bucky's Brotastic Adventure is going to have to be post-Endgame by default, for the simple fact that Bucky's life story is accounted for.

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#94031: Jan 10th 2019 at 12:25:01 AM

I want everyone to come back, even Heimdall and Loki and all the Asgardians killed before the first scene.

Why? So I can tell everyone who thought they would stay dead that I was right and they were wrong.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 10th 2019 at 12:25:12 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94032: Jan 10th 2019 at 3:46:29 AM

I just get attached to characters. I don't want to give up on any of them.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94033: Jan 10th 2019 at 3:55:45 AM

[up] Nobody wants to give up on the characters they like. It shows how well Marvel has done at presenting us with characters we enjoy that you can say this about all of them. At the same time, though, that means there are genuine stakes in who dies for real in this story.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94034: Jan 10th 2019 at 3:59:47 AM

Hell one of my favorite manga ended like two days ago & the lead died in the penultimate chapter.

Real gut-wrenching stuff there, especially since he picked a secluded spot to watch the sunset alone whilst calmly accepting his death.

Really made me feel for the guy after watching all the battles he went through through over 200 chapters. sad

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 10th 2019 at 4:00:29 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#94035: Jan 10th 2019 at 4:13:36 AM

[up]Hey, mind D Ming me the name? Seems cool.

eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#94036: Jan 10th 2019 at 4:32:04 AM

[up][up] Same here. Or you could just spoiltag the name for anyone interested.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#94037: Jan 10th 2019 at 4:43:48 AM

Alright sure I’ll spoil-tag it here for connivence.

Manga’s name is Kengan Ashura & it’s a martial arts manga about corporations settling their desputes like who gets what contract through gladiator fights with fighters they employ following salary-man Yamashita Kazuo & the fighter he manages, Tokita Ohma.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 10th 2019 at 4:44:32 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94038: Jan 10th 2019 at 4:56:24 AM

I don't believe in the "real stakes" idea because even with game of thrones, it is pretty easy to see a pattern in who dies and who doesn't once you get past the first shock death. I frankly don't want to get "shocked" by people dying. For me a death is a good idea when I actually feel for the character or when it furthers the narrative. Or both.

For me a dead character is a wasted narrative opportunity.

And, btw, how many movies actually kill the main characters?

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#94039: Jan 10th 2019 at 5:20:09 AM

I can see both sides of the argument. A death should always be mmeaningful, not for pure shock value. But there has to be some kind of peril. If every character wears a Plot Armor, there is a lack of suspense at some point.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#94040: Jan 10th 2019 at 5:33:51 AM

Unless the meaningless random nature of death is the point, a fictional character's death should have some sort of meaning. It shouldn't just be shock value.

If it's a main character who has had a long character arc throughout a series, their death should coincide with a sense of...closure. The fans should feel sad that their story is ending, but feel satisfied with the way it concludes.

Disgusted, but not surprised
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#94041: Jan 10th 2019 at 5:54:22 AM

All epic tales should end with the main character performing a Heroic Sacrifice.

"I Don't Want to Die" optional.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#94042: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:11:33 AM

For me a dead character is a wasted narrative opportunity.

I'm on the fence because of these words: "narrative opportunity".

What I often think of in terms of character death is representation. Does this character provide important representation? For instance, my biggest objections to Gamora staying dead are that a) her death is a classic case of Women in Refrigerators, and b) we just managed to get a second female character in the Guardians as of the previous film, and the Marvel Universe is a sausagefest as it is, so going "F*ck you, Women!" and kicking it down to Mantis being the team's only lady is a step in the wrong direction.

Killing Gamora is a mistake if Gamora's meant to remain dead. It's like killing off Hope Pym and going, "Sucks, amirite? Anyways, next movie, look forward to the adventures of Scott and Hank! And I guess Janet too, now that she's there?" The MCU does not have nearly enough leading ladies to start killing them off willy-nilly.

But "narrative opportunity" has been a peeve of mine for a long time, because of the comics. The comics are plagued by events and storylines driven for the purpose of creating storytelling opportunity. This event is Good because it creates new storytelling opportunities. That event is Bad because it removes storytelling opportunities.

Let's take Peter Quill as a random example. The number of stories that can be told with Peter Quill are infinite. The number of stories that can be told without Peter Quill are infinite. There are an infinite number of stories that could be told if Peter Quill was turned into a rabbit. There's an infinite number of stories that could be told if Quill turned out to be a Skrull. An infinite number if he was transformed into a woman. An infinite number if he became Thor. An infinite number if he got an alien symbiote.

The number of storytelling opportunities is always infinite opportunities, because stories are not limited by the circumstances of the narrative but by the imagination of the writer. And that creates a problem when nobody's allowed to actually write interesting stories, because everyone has to make sure they don't accidentally step on storytelling opportunity.

Comics have a problem of interesting stories not being told for the sake of preserving the ability to not tell interesting stories later.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 10th 2019 at 8:11:44 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94043: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:30:12 AM

For me, what matters more than "storytelling opportunity", whatever that means, is whether I feel a sense of emotional attachment to the characters and their stories. Am I excited to see them on screen? Am I invested in their success? Do I feel sadness when they suffer tragedy and loss?

The least valuable character is a boring one. Thor: Ragnarok proved that by murdering three of Thor's buddies in the first few minutes. I've seen the other films, but I had virtually no attachment to those characters, and thus their deaths carried little weight for me.

I do care about Heimdall, Loki, Gamora, and Vision. That's why their visceral, on-screen deaths in Infinity War are so dramatic and emotional. I care about everyone who dies in that film, which is a real accomplishment in a franchise that is so vast and complex.

Now, we can get into meta-commentary about representation if we want to. I don't enjoy those kinds of discussions because I feel like the ability to write interesting stories is being constrained by external pressures. That said, if we count the deaths of main characters in the film, three out of four "real" deaths are men, and if you include the snap, we lose (by my count) 12 male characters and 4 females. So things are at least proportional. We're left with, depending on whom you count as a main character, at least 2 women: Nebula and Black Widow, plus (potentially) Okoye, Shuri, Nakia, Valkyrie, and Pepper.

Personally, I don't think that we can bring back Quill without also bringing back Gamora. To have that relationship permanently severed feels like it'd undo all the character development we saw in the two Guardians films. However, the manner of her death is pretty serious, and I also don't want it to be reversed cheaply. If you're going to kill off MCs as a writer, you need to own it.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 10:52:40 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#94044: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:52:59 AM

I just want happy, or at least bittersweet, endings. Because superhero movies are a bit escapist. I want the catharsis of a hard won battle, but I also want happy closure for my favorite characters. I don’t find tragic deaths that compelling or beautiful; I don’t watch movies for that. It only works in very limited circumstances.

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#94045: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:11:45 AM

I was gonna make a big deal about whether or not Gamora comes back but Tobias said much of what needed to be said already. As per usual. I'll just put it this way: none of the four movies before IW had a scene that tempted me to outright skip it on subsequent viewings. IW did.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#94046: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:13:26 AM

One of the nice things about fictional narratives is that death can actually mean something. As opposed to real life, where death is often random and meaningless.

Edited by M84 on Jan 11th 2019 at 12:13:38 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#94047: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:18:43 AM

To expand on the notion of narrative opportunities: Let's imagine that Steve had died at the end of The First Avenger. It would be a logical conclusion to the arc he had in the movie. It might have told us "huh, the main character in a Marvel movie can die". But we would have never got to see Steve trying to adjust to a different century, we would have never seen him facing up against Tony, basically we would have never gotten the big thematic arc of the MCU.

Same with Bucky. Yeah, he should have stayed dead, but isn't the story of the POV which was brainwashed and ended up killing one of his close friends way more satisfying?

Or Loki...wouldn't it have been a waste if they had killed him off, just like they did with most villains?

Even in Yondu's case I am kind of sad about him dying. It was satisfying in a way and yet I would have loved to see more of the interaction between him and Quill once Quill realized that Yondu actually cares for him.

The only death in the MCU I really love is OG Groots, because that is the only one which opened up new narrative opportunities with new Groot we wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

[up] Well, Ao S did the meaningless dead at least twice!!!!

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 10th 2019 at 8:19:21 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#94048: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:19:12 AM

Which is why I adamantly want Gamora back. Otherwise her death is just “yeah, she doesn’t get to be an agent in her own story, she’s murdered for someone else’s character development, becoming another kid murdered by an abusive parent.”

I do not find that satisfying. Or meaningful. It makes me sad and angry and I haven’t rewatched IW since it came out on digital because the whole thing is such a damn bummer. Not the snap, but Gamora’s death.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#94049: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:21:32 AM

Gamora's death had meaning and purpose. It wasn't a good narrative purpose — facilitating the character development of others rather than her own — but it was a purpose.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94050: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:46:31 AM

[up] Personally, I found the scene compelling as all hell. It may well be the best scene in the movie from an acting perspective. Anyone who says that Gamora is being casually fridged to give Quill motivation isn't even making a superficial attempt to understand the story — aside from the fact that his reaction to her death is a major factor in the heroes losing the battle.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 11:49:33 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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