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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#93576: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:00:19 PM

Pushover: sure but it still feel weird, it was their fault for experimenting with alien tech in the first place and their best idea is...doing the same and hope for the best, it also make Tony goting away with is dickery.

About Ultron: while I agree Zemo is boring and overated I disagree about Ultron: him being childish and petty ruin any sense of dread he have, specially because once he lost the twins and their deflect, it come down to him and pretty hard.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#93577: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:03:52 PM

At the very least Far From Home should be better than Homecoming by virtue of no Tony Stark.

It will do Peter some good.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#93578: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:04:32 PM

I'd argue against him being a "credible threat."

"credible threat" doesn't just mean "he can punch them real good". Zemo is a credible threat because, as he himself points out, he's a clever man who knows how to play his cards. He knows where to attack and manipulate the situation to suit his needs. he knows he doesn't need to do much to set them off against one another. He knows the situation is ticking time bomb and all he has to do is speed up the timer.

Zemo's main quality is exactly that he's this more or less regular guy throwing a wrench in this team of demi-gods without having to even lift a finger on them. The film knows he's not the main, singular threat, just an agitator of the problems already there, and that's part of what makes him a great villain.

The fact he wins doesn't hurt either.

By the way, yes, at the end of the film, after creating an army of himself, he's powerful enough. Hell, unlike Loki or Zemo, he actually kills one of the Avengers

No, he really doesn't. The main heroes don't ever struggle all that much with the Ultron army anymore than they did with the Chitauri army. Considerably less, actually, given Cap seemed seriously injured during that but comes out relatively unscathed against the Ultron legion.

Ultron also kills Quicksilver via essentially what's a blind luck strike after the battle is over and he's been beaten. If you well recall, he's flying the Quinjet away (after his army is entirely gone) and shoots at a kid. Quicksilver saves the kid but not himself and dies. Hardly a big feat.

I can agree Ultron had more potential than Zemo with his unstable personality, but the execution chucked him on a brick wall. Zemo, by contrast, had a very simple concept (smart guy with dead family and revenge on supers), but the execution really sold it.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#93579: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:05:49 PM

It's especially jarring since Ultron is supposed to be one of the major villains of the Marvel verse. He's pretty much the most dangerous non-cosmic scale Big Bad the Avengers have ever faced. He's rivaled by Kang the Conqueror in that regard.

Edited by M84 on Jan 3rd 2019 at 1:06:45 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#93580: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:07:04 PM

The Avengers waste Ultron's vibranium armor that we got a whole scene dedicated to showing the forging of pretty much the moment they start really trying, and much like the Chitauri his minions are only dangerous because there's a lot of them and are otherwise made of paper mache.

He puts up more of a fight in a stolen jet than he does on his own.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:13:19 AM

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#93581: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:08:49 PM

@wisewillow I'm sorry. I'm really, really sorry. I realize none of this has been fair for you. If it's any consolation I'm right with you in thinking that line is kind of gross. Especially these days when women's rights to doing what they want with their own bodies are more and more at risk, which is just another way AOU feels like it's only gotten worse and worse as time's gone on I guess.

Edited by AyyItsMidnight on Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:09:13 AM

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#93582: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:12:21 PM

I hope Wisewillow isn't completely turned off from this thread by this.

It's a stupid line, and no matter the intention, I can get why it sets you off. Sometimes you're gonna say the wrong thing despite the intention being the opposite.

That conversation should have ended with an agree to disagree the moment it became clear that it was very personal.

One Strip! One Strip!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#93583: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:12:24 PM

No, he really doesn't. The main heroes don't ever struggle all that much with the Ultron army anymore than they did with the Chitauri army.
Well, they have Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, War Machine, and the Vision to help them this time. But they still look tired and worn out by the end of the battle, especially Hawkeye, who pretty much collapses next to Quicksilver's dead body.

By the way: people's feelings are people's feelings, I understand that. I wasn't trying to invalidate anyone's feelings, just trying to show how the movie frames Natasha's own feelings in that regard.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:13:31 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#93584: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:15:55 PM

Ultron being relatively easy to hurt and destroy is jarring since most of his incarnations in the comics, especially the later ones, are damn near impossible to destroy. They are made of adamantium, after all.

Disgusted, but not surprised
nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#93585: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:15:57 PM

Again, please move along for now. The topic of Natasha's infertility can be revisited later on if/when people are feeling cooler.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#93586: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:17:28 PM

And yes, adamantium is apparently not a thing in the MCU. But even if he's "just" made of vibranium, remember that vibranium is the stuff that Cap's shield is made out of.

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#93587: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:22:16 PM

Is weird how Whedon, someone who like to mock tropes or subverted, engage in some of the most cliche of all: first monologing for not good reason(he did with nat in a moment that seerved not reason at all), and seending mooks thinking it will get the protagonist in any way whatsover.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#93588: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:22:31 PM

Meh. I've made my stance with AOU. For all it's flaws, it's not a movie I hate.

It's not a perfect movie, but the things I liked I felt it did well.

I like seeing the Avengers stand together as a team and put their collective foot up the bad guys ass. I'm looking forward to seeing them do it again in Endgame: that moment where they all stand together and put the boots to evil.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#93589: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:23:23 PM

Avengers 2 got hit pretty hard with the general direction they had back then of the Avengers being unstoppable. Every villain in that movie goes down like a house of cards - often in humorous ways - with the bulk of the plot being focused on the villains succeeding temporarily due to making them fight each other instead. It ultimately hurts Ultron's ability to carry the plot, vs the heroes' carrying it for him (this is a similar problem that, say, Malekith has). Hell, I could've seen them literally making Tony the primary antagonist of the film in a similar way that Civil War did, and it working out better based on what they set up in the first half and the story decisions they opted to make afterwards.

Avengers 1 handled it a little better. It's one of the best examples of an Eigen Plot done well, where there's a good reason for everyone to be split up, each character has their own essential role, and each struggles in accomplishing that role until they all succeed together. In Avengers 2, the characters get tired, but at no point are they ever really challenged. Avengers 1 still uses the "together they're unstoppable" idea, but instead pulls the fight as a war of attrition: Iron Man starts to falter because he runs out of ammo and has to put himself at risk to keep the fight up, Hulk can't keep up with the number of minions attacking him, Hawkeye runs out of arrows and gets hurt escaping an attack, etc, it both builds on the scenes that came before them and put the characters at risk due to that buildup in a way Avengers 2 didn't.

In contrast, the big setback in Avengers 2 happens all of a sudden without much buildup, and isn't really a result of them being overwhelmed or challenged. Ultron ditches his entire MO and hops into a fighter jet, and in that moment Quicksilver can't both save people and dodge, so he dies. Followed by Hulk easily knocking Ultron out of the sky the moment he decides he wants to, making the whole thing seem like an excuse to kill somebody.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:26:21 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#93590: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:23:44 PM

[up][up][up]I've always felt Whedon was overrated. And that's before the less savory aspects of his personality were revealed.

Edited by M84 on Jan 3rd 2019 at 1:23:57 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#93591: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:25:51 PM

Will drop now.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#93592: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:32:24 PM

[up][up]I know but he made a good rep on mocking and being subversive in tropes as it show in firefly were he does(is personal for example) but AOU he just run into it.

he also run on the problem of plagarizing itself: Ultron come as less threating version of loki: petty, childish, egomaniac,etc and Wanda as human version of the specter who does the same thing in narrative standing.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#93593: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:37:54 PM

I would've liked to see Ultron and his bodies attack more like a relentless artificial hivemind. We've all experienced just how ridiculously overpowered and fast computers can be, and having Ultron be an unstoppable legion throughout I think would've given more credibility to their eventual decision to desperately create Vision, a computer to match a computer. Perhaps what keeps Vision good in this attempt while Ultron went wrong is that Vision is made as a unified effort from all the Avengers, while Ultron was made behind most of their backs.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#93594: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:40:35 PM

I think people also expect Ultron to be a powerfull in part because is the movie that conect heavly to Infinity war so Ultron should be a prep job for Thannos, a way to prepare the public for what is too come.

The other was the trailer that make look Ultron could take the entire avengers by itselfs.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#93595: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:41:25 PM

And people who were familiar with Ultron in the comics would also expect him to be a physical as well as mental powerhouse who can take on the entire team by himself.

Disgusted, but not surprised
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#93596: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:43:47 PM

he also run on the problem of plagarizing itself: Ultron come as less threating version of loki: petty, childish, egomaniac,etc and Wanda as human version of the specter who does the same thing in narrative standing.
Huh? Loki and Ultron are nothing alike. And..."human version of the specter"? What does that mean?

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#93597: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:44:30 PM

Plus he’s a big robot going up against the Avengers which includes the Hulk.

You’d think he’d be some kind of immensely physical threat to them.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#93598: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:45:17 PM

The Spectre? That's a DC character, not a Marvel one.

Disgusted, but not surprised
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#93599: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:45:40 PM

[up][up]I mean...the Hulk doesn't really have any big threats. The only thing that ever even stops the Hulk is Thanos. It even takes Hulkbuster Iron Man a lot of time and effort to put the Hulk down and that was specifically designed to stop the Hulk. Ultron isn't. In fact, Ultron is creating his bodies on the fly at first and then just creating disposable ones. After all, why create one big strong one when he can create a thousand smaller ones?

[up]I know, right?

Edited by alliterator on Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:47:49 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#93600: Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:47:30 PM

Generally sequels involve escalation of some kind.

An escalation for Ultron could have included finding a way to handle the Hulk through some manner.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:47:46 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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