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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
The problem is that a character repeating their mistakes and being rewarded for it by the narrative is bad writing, or at least it is in this context. Tony learning that he shouldn't try to do everything himself and that he needs to take the team into consideration when he makes decisions is what Tony's character arc should have been in the movie. Not being obvious can be excellent writing if done properly and should be encouraged where possible, but you have to do it skilfully. Here, the "obvious" choice would have been much better.
That goes both ways though. Wisewillow doesn't have the obligation of being "objective" about the movie because art isn't objective to begin with. It's not like she can force you to share her opinion, but the least you could do is say "Ok, I understand why you might feel that way" and move on.
Edited by Draghinazzo on Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:43:51 PM
This isn't about what the movie is saying. This is about what Natasha believes. And, in turn, what the movie asks us to see is that Natasha isn't right, that she isn't a monster. She almost gives her life to save people in Sokovia and so, even if she doesn't end up with Bruce, she still decides to stay with the Avengers. Her last shot in the film is contemplating things and then staying an Avenger, rather than leaving like Iron Man and Thor and the Hulk do.
Edited by alliterator on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:44:18 AM
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You'd think that, right? But he goes on to make the exact same mistakes in Civil War and Infinity War. It's almost as if it's his defining character flaw and one that can't be exorcised in a single film. It's almost like Marvel is building an entire mega-arc out of it.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"@wisewillow
I get that this is a personal issue for you, but I think your interpretation of the scene is wrong. I think the scene is meant to convey "You can't have kids? Hey, I can't either. I was tortured from childhood and conditioned to be a cold-blooded killer, and that makes me a monster, just like the Hulk."
It's not "I'm infertile, and that makes me a monster". That's not what the intent behind that scene is. I get that you're offended by it, but what you're offended by is your interpretation of the scene, which I think is not the correct interpretation of the scene. I will not concede this point.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 2nd 2019 at 9:44:09 AM
Oh, and I forgot to say that even though Natasha can't have children, she still gets along with children. Specifically, Hawkeye's kids. So even in this way, the movie frames her as not a monster. And the movie ends with Hawkeye showing her his son, partially named after Natasha. Because even Hawkeye knows that she's a hero.
Edited by alliterator on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:46:10 AM
"The character states what she believes"
Sure she can state that, problem is it is bullshit and bad writing.
What whedon did there is chararter comparation, is not diferent from Steve and Tony arguing over the team or what to do, but in this case it dosent work because Nat have agency over what she does while Bruce can barely control himself.
Nat mind getting whamming got her dizzy and trumatized, Bruce almost kill people)or maybe he did, the fact was weird like that).
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Sure, I get that it's in character for Stark to continue making the same mistakes over and over. My issue is rewarding him for continuing to make those mistakes by having it solve the problem.
For an example of a actually well-written villain who puts the concept of the disunity of heroes front and center you have Zemo, who gets by entirely on throwing the heroes against each other but remains a very credible threat all the way through. Or, as it has been mentioned, Loki in the First Avengers, who also toys with the idea of throwing the heroes against each other.
Ultron is that idea but half-assed and boring because it legitimately feels like the heroes should have this in the bag if they weren't fucking around.
To compare the two, Zemo is Beneath Notice for most of the movie and the narrative is framed like a mystery, with just detecting that Zemo is an influence being a victory. Since he's an entirely cerebral villain, the film doesn't even pretend he's any sort of physical threat and his actual main M.O and objective is causing the heroes to divide among themselves, making him a much stronger and cohesive villain within the narrative. His plan is the threat.
Ultron, by contrast, has a plan deliberately written as a Missing Steps Plan (to represent his more irrational nature), it keeps going sideways, and he keeps engaging the heroes physically and getting absolutely curbstomped no matter how many time he does it. He's also only tangentially related to the heroes inner strife. He only gets as far as he did by sheer dumb luck.
PS: on the subject of the current argument about Nat and Hulk, I'm just gonna say I find incredibly condescending for people to be lecturing Willow, part of the demographic directly offended by the dialogue, why she shouldn't be offended.
Edited by Gaon on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:47:29 AM
"All you Fascists bound to lose."And this has gotten uncomfortable.
Willow you have my sincerest apologies for how this conversation turned out.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie.""His plan is the threat."
In fact I will said Zemo is so efective that is plan almost become useless: by the time Tony and Steve got into the siberian compound, the Avenger already fight between themselves until only both of them remains, zemo should have being laughting in how bad Tony and Steve got to get him.
And about Nat and Bruce...yeah, I can get why Willow would be upset, the fact the sterilizing is contrast to Hulking out is tone deaf at the best of time, which is why again the comparation dosent work, is really weird for nat to bring that fact and not all the awfull stuff she did in the red room....
Is just bad
Edited by unknowing on Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:53:18 PM
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"![]()
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And this is why I don't like Age of Ultron as much as the other films, because Ultron is a weaker opponent. I freely concede the point.
Edited by Fighteer on Jan 2nd 2019 at 11:50:58 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I thought the point of Tony convincing Bruce to make Vision was "Let's prove that Ultron wasn't inherently a terrible idea by doing it right this time". Like, Tony was trying to prove that a scientific idea isn't inherently bad just because one instance of it went bad, and that's a sentiment I can get behind.
Vision turning out well is also partially due to an element of luck, but the good luck of creating Vision is balanced out by the bad luck of creating Ultron, so that part doesn't bother me. It's not actually Tony or Bruce's fault that Ultron turned out bad, it's the Mind Stone's programming combined with exposure to the internet (which would drive any AI mad, hell, there have literally been Real Life AI corrupted to evil by the internet's influence, that's the most realistic part of the movie).
Zemo is also a pretty boring villain with a fairly standard motivation set. "The Avengers killed my family, I will destroy the Avengers." Ultron has a far more interesting motivation and is far more interesting than Zemo, even if he's not powerful enough to defeat the Avengers until the end of the film.
By the way, yes, at the end of the film, after creating an army of himself, he's powerful enough. Hell, unlike Loki or Zemo, he actually kills one of the Avengers (sure, it's Quicksilver, but still). (And no, Coulson doesn't count, because he came back to life.)
Ultron is also vindictive, petty, funny, and childish. All of those things make him way more interesting than Zemo to me.
Edited by alliterator on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:53:49 AM
This is one of those situations where the original comics pre Ultimate Avengers anyway — man, the Ultimate comics really do fuck up everything — were actually less offensive than modern stuff. That wasn't originally part of Natasha's backstory at all.
Edited by M84 on Jan 3rd 2019 at 12:52:44 AM
Disgusted, but not surprised![]()
Well, I have to say that Zemo as the villain is by far the least interesting part of Civil War. He barely had to do anything and the Avengers were tearing each other apart. The story is much more about their flaws than about him.
Yeah I uh... kind of am not really looking forward to Far From Home anymore. Spider-Verse is just too damn good.
This song needs more love.![]()
At least the title doesn't play him up the way it did Ultron. Heck, the title itself blares out that the movie would be more about the Avengers' interpersonal problems.
It's like how Nitro was a non-factor in the Civil War comics storyline even though it was his mass murder that started the whole mess.
He was only addressed in a Wolverine tie-in comic of all things since Wolverine was one of the few people who remembered there was a mass murderer running around.
Edited by M84 on Jan 3rd 2019 at 12:56:05 AM
Disgusted, but not surprisedUltron has a good voice.
It hides how much of a weak character he is really.
Once again a shame for one of the biggest badasses in all of comics.
Fuck not supposed to being a credible threat. If anyone’s supposed to be a credible threat, it should have been him.
Edited by slimcoder on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:57:31 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."I do feel like Spider-Verse captures the mythos and themes of Spidey much better than Homecoming did (better than most other adaptations besides Spectacular did, really), even given that it's about Miles and not Peter.
But at the same time, the success of one movie doesn't ruin my expectations for another, and I've always felt like Homecoming and the MCU is leading up to those themes for Peter's character eventually.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:57:51 AM
I still think that Far From Home will be good (and I'm certainly looking forward to Mysterio) but I also think that it will just be good.
Spider-Verse was an experience.
Yeah, that.
Edited by LordVatek on Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:01:00 PM
This song needs more love.

You do not have the right to tell other people how they are allowed to feel.
Edited by Fighteer on Jan 2nd 2019 at 11:40:14 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"