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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#93526: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:08:36 PM

The problem with Nat saying that is the Wheedon compared the two and that comparation fail for a couple of things.

First is....Nat, you are not a monster and you will never, Nat is WEAPON, and not even like Bucky who got is memory earsed every time he does something or kill someone else mother, Nat can have a normal live and the only thing that stop her is if she want too, she is closer to Bucky and Cap because of it.

But Bruce? he is close to a force of nature, he can barely have a normal life, he is one call of duty game, one tweet or one bad break up to level and entire city and create mayham were he goes, Nat CANT do that.

the comparation come as flat and really underserving, also fuck AOU Wanda for brainswashing Bruce, that was totally no cool.

Edited by unknowing on Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:10:22 PM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#93527: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:10:32 PM

Not every villain has to be diabolical. MCU Ultron works for the story that is being told. After all, he reflects Tony's personality, and isn't that part of the point?

It's been a while since I've seen that film, and I remember not being terribly impressed by it, but it's hard for me to place exactly why. Looking at it in retrospect, it's very much about Tony's flaws, which have been a central part of the MCU since the beginning. It's fitting that Phase 3 is likely to end with him, one way or the other. Same with Steve and Thor, if rumors are to be believed.

  • Tony Stark's egocentrism and insecurity lead him to create his own enemies and drive away his friends.
  • Steve Rogers' intense personal morality drives him to focus on individual loyalty over the larger picture, causing him to miss practical solutions to problems.
  • Thor's arrogance constantly causes him to make grievous errors of judgment and walk into situations that he's not prepared for.

A good heroic story has the protagonists' flaws drive the conflict. The flagship Phase 1 franchises have all done this with varying degrees of success. I hope that Phase 4 will do just as good a job of exploring the new heroes' flaws.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 2nd 2019 at 11:16:05 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#93528: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:12:10 PM

[up]Maybe but Ultron fail because he lack menance and threat, once he lose the twins he also lost Vision and them all come back to him eventually.

It just come as lamer version of Loki.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#93529: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:12:34 PM

The difference being Tony is a total badass.

Ultron just kinda wasn’t.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#93530: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:15:11 PM

Ultron has like what, two scenes where he's pretty menacing? From that point on he's pretty whatever.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#93531: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:17:15 PM

And again, Age of Ultron isn't really about Ultron. Ironic if you think about it, and something very easy for audiences to miss given that it's the title of the damn movie. It's about Tony: how his insecurity and ego cause him to make awful decisions.

AoU puts the pieces in place for Civil War and, to a lesser extent, Thor: Ragnarok; and then those two movies set the stage for Infinity War. Thanos is able to take advantage of the fact that the Avengers are divided and separated, when they might have beaten him as a united team.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 2nd 2019 at 11:19:46 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#93532: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:17:43 PM

[up][up]It dosent help he got three scene that break whatever feeling of threat he could get.

the whole thor moment which is just another "random humor"

When he said "In retrospective" which was REALLY cringeworthy.

And of course, when Hulk throw him out of the airplane.

is hard to care about him after that.

[up]It dosent make Ultron presence in the film a waste, specially since thanks to Thor, Tony get away with is crap int he damn movie, it took another movie with Civil war to deal with that.

Civil war is pretty much "and Tony suck ass for what it did in AOU".

Edited by unknowing on Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:19:16 PM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#93533: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:18:46 PM

...still like it.

All I got to say. I wanted evil robot Ultron tearing shit up, and I got it.

It's got bad, I'll admit that, but I still like it.

One Strip! One Strip!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#93534: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:20:03 PM

See, I like Tony deciding to try again after creating Ultron is because the alternative would be the obvious storyline AND a little bit out of character for Tony. It is Tony's way to keep trying to fix his own mistakes. He is obsessed with it. So naturally he would try again and create a better model. The character development is then summoned up in the difference between Vision and Ultron.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#93535: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:21:28 PM

In general, way too many MCU movies revolve around Tony Stark's mistakes and ego. Though I guess it's fitting, given that Iron Man was the movie that launched the MCU.

Edited by M84 on Jan 3rd 2019 at 12:21:56 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#93536: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:21:36 PM

They sterilize you. It's efficient. One less thing to worry about, the one thing that might matter more than a mission. It makes everything easier — even killing. You still think you’re the only monster on the team?
Except there's a pause between "killing" and the next sentence. And here's the thing: she mentions being monster right after she mentions being a killer. It's not the sterilization that makes her the monster — it's the fact that she was a completely efficient killer, designed only for killing. Anything that could distract her from her mission, from killing — even the ability to have children — was taken away from her. Again: not being able to have children isn't why she thinks she's a monster, the fact that her entire life was dedicated towards killing is.

First is....Nat, you are not a monster and you will never, Nat is WEAPON
I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. The character states what she believes, you can't just say "You don't believe that, you should believe something else."

Edited by alliterator on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:23:55 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#93537: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:22:02 PM

[up][up][up] Very much this.

[up][up][up][up][up] Civil War showcases the flaws of both Steve and Tony. Tony is traumatized and frightened and wants control over a world that he sees falling to pieces, especially since part of that is his fault. Steve is consumed by his intense personal loyalty to Bucky and ignores alternatives that might prevent a lot of problems.

[up] I didn't take from that scene that being sterile means she has no maternal feelings and is thus automatically more sociopathic. I took from it that they sterilized her as a way of making her feel even more detached from the rest of humanity so she would have fewer qualms about killing. It was part of her psychological conditioning

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 2nd 2019 at 11:23:27 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#93538: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:23:07 PM

You know I don’t want an Avengers movie to be all about Tony.

It should be more spread out.

[up][up][up][up] Is it really Character Development if he’s just lucky?

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:24:07 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#93539: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:24:10 PM

I've always said I don't dislike Ultron's personality and questionable mental stability in Ao U. The problem is that he cannot pack any reasonable amount of menace for any prolonged period of time.

He's a product of a bizarre thesis that Whedon had, the idea that the Avengers are a ticking time-bomb of teammates that hate each other and so are always at each other's throats, but literally unstoppable once they get together against the enemy. So Ultron is outmatched in every way almost every time he faces the Avengers. His plan relies entirely on stalling for time and praying they bicker amongst themselves long enough to buy him time to allow his evil plan to kick off.

I will say it is criminal that Vision and Ultron didn't have more scenes together. If I were to rewrite the movie, making the Vision-Ultron relationship the central aspect of the movie would be my main priority given the literal best scene of the film is their one prolonged interaction.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#93540: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:24:48 PM

[up][up] Iron Man is Marvel's headline character throughout Phases 1 through 3. They aren't going to ignore that fact. Obviously, other characters get to have roles, but he's half of the story even in Cap's third film.

His plan relies entirely on stalling for time and praying they bicker amongst themselves long enough to buy him time to allow his evil plan to kick off.

Ultron is right. It just takes another movie for the ramifications to play out. Heck, didn't I just say that the flaws of the characters should drive their stories? The Avengers' disunity is what allows Thanos to succeed, after all.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 2nd 2019 at 11:26:41 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#93541: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:26:07 PM

I didn't take from that scene that being sterile means she has no maternal feelings and is thus automatically more sociopathic. I took from it that they sterilized her as a way of making her feel even more detached from the rest of humanity so she would have fewer qualms about killing.
It could have been both. Nat says that they took away the "one thing that might matter more than a mission" (children), but also it was "one less thing to worry about" (detachment). The line was all about her detachment from humanity and becoming a more efficient killer. Which is why she considers herself a monster.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#93542: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:28:15 PM

[up] Again, I'm looking at it not as "being sterile makes you a sociopath", but that "being sterilized is part of a program of conditioning designed to make you a sociopath", and it's one of the things that Nat regrets the most.

Now, we can have all sorts of debates about whether the desire for children is a thing all women should axiomatically feel — that's a rabbit hole I have no intention of going down. How would we feel about a male character being sterilized in order to create mental detachment? That's not the point, and I don't think Natasha would appreciate being used to score sociopolitical points. If she regrets not being able to have children, that's completely valid and we shouldn't attack her for it.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 2nd 2019 at 11:31:04 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#93543: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:28:36 PM

[up][up]Yup. And as an infertile person myself I think I get to say whether that line was offensive to me. It very much was. A slight pause doesn’t negate the crappy writing and the nasty implications.

[up] That may have been the intended meaning, but it sure as hell didn’t come across that way.

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 2nd 2019 at 11:29:27 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#93544: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:29:25 PM

Yeah I don’t like that the villains menace has to take a hit just to prove some point about how the heroes are indestructible through teamwork.

It’s just lame.

Loki was already a non-action Big Bad, Ultron should have been a true challenge for the Avengers, pushing them to their absolute limits.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:30:32 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#93545: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:31:59 PM

[up][up] Again, you're projecting your own feelings into the film's context. That's not wrong, but you aren't objective, and you don't get to demand that the writers cater to your particular concerns any more than I do. I suspect that if you interviewed a sample of infertile people of both genders, many would feel a great deal of grief about it. You don't have the right to tell them they shouldn't feel that way, any more than I have the right to tell you how you should feel about it.

[up] I agree that Ultron is the weakest part of the film, which is ironic given its title.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 2nd 2019 at 11:35:00 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#93546: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:34:55 PM

My main problem with Ultron was that his motivations were kind of unclear and I wasn't sure what his actual deal was.

His goal was simple to start off. The Avengers are causing too much chaos and destruction, so they need to be eliminated for the greater good. I understand that line of thinking. Ultron wanting to take over the world because he thinks peace can only be accomplished by force? I understand that line of thinking as well.

It's where the Doomsday device comes in where he starts to lose me. Okay, so Ultron thinks humanity needs to evolve in order to survive, and he thinks the only for them to do that is if he causes a mass extinction that will leave only a few people alive, and Ultron will also evolve too by transferring himself into the new Vision body, and then in the ashes Ultron will emerge and everyone will not try to kill him and turn to him as some form of savior, and he'll lead him to the next stage of evolution...?

And then once his plan fails, he decides "Screw it. Rocks fall, everyone dies." It seemed like I was missing crucial parts of Ultron's development and he seemed to follow the Underpants Gnomes' Guide to Making Plans. If he was just crazy, that's one thing. But it certainly didn't come across that way. It just seemed like Whedon wasn't quite sure what type of villain he wanted Ultron to be.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#93547: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:35:12 PM

The Big Bad of a superhero movie shouldn't be the weakest part of it. Especially if their name is part of the title.

[up]That's one of the things that makes comics Ultron a better character. He always knew what he wanted — to kill people and upstage "daddy".

Edited by M84 on Jan 3rd 2019 at 12:36:13 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#93548: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:35:20 PM

[up][up][up]... women get to say if they found something sexist. People of color get to say if they found something to be racist. I don’t appreciate the condescension of that response. And I didn’t say ANYTHING about grief, I said associating infertility with being a monster or making it easier to be a killer was offensive and stupid.

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 2nd 2019 at 11:36:22 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#93549: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:36:21 PM

And as an infertile person myself I think I get to say whether that line was offensive to me.
But it's not saying that "being infertile makes you a monster." It quite clearly is stating "they made me infertile because they thought it would give me less distractions and that would, in turn, make me a better killer."

Edited by alliterator on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:37:16 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#93550: Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:37:48 PM

Yes, and then she calls herself a monster, thereby agreeing with them, or at least declining to disagree. Hell, she doesn’t say “they thought it was efficient” or “they thought it would make killing easier.” She says “It's efficient. One less thing to worry about, the one thing that might matter more than a mission. It makes everything easier — even killing.” Anyway, I’m done, every time I bring this up I get scolded for being too sensitive or misunderstanding the line.

So, Into the Spider-Verse isn’t official MCU, but damn, Far From Home has a lot to live up to.

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 2nd 2019 at 11:39:25 AM


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