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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92951: Dec 24th 2018 at 7:53:20 PM

Fury wasn't responsible for the HYDRA infiltration, but Winter Soldier props up the idea that he unwittingly contributed to it by adopting his rather heavily "ends justify the means" mindset and ultimately became blind to what was happening right beneath his nose. There are a few clear indicators of Fury's (subconscious) responsibility for the rise of HYDRA: A) The fact Project Insight is Fury's pride and joy at the beginning, and he sees absolutely no problems with it until HYDRA takes hold, even fiercely debating with Cap that he thinks Insight is a good thing with arguments that are practically identical to Pierce's later on. B) When Pierce points out to him in the climax that he was inspired by Fury's actions in Bogotá, Fury seems taken aback and somewhat ashamed in a mildly My God, What Have I Done? judging by his expression. C) In the end, the solution for the HYDRA problem is not to cleanse SHIELD (as Fury's original plan was), it is to dismantle it (as Cap insisted).

The ideological implication of The Winter Soldier is not that SHIELD was infiltrated by HYDRA per see, it is that SHIELD and HYDRA were becoming ideologically indistinguishable. HYDRA as presented in TWS is not really the antithesis of SHIELD, it is the logical conclusion of SHIELD's (and, subsequently, Fury's) ideology.

The fact the third Captain America movie dealt with other subjects and Nick Fury took a backseat in future MCU movies kept them from really exploring that, but TWS paints a very ambiguous picture of Nicholas in that he, undeniably, fucked up.

Edited by Gaon on Dec 24th 2018 at 7:54:13 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#92952: Dec 24th 2018 at 8:25:49 PM

Agents of SHIELD touched on that. Not Fury specifically, but on how screwed up SHIELD had become and how it really did need to be burned to the ground.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92953: Dec 24th 2018 at 8:38:23 PM

[[/quoteblock]]Fury wasn't responsible for the HYDRA infiltration, but Winter Soldier props up the idea that he unwittingly contributed to it by adopting his rather heavily "ends justify the means" mindset and ultimately became blind to what was happening right beneath his nose.[[/quoteblock]]

The fact Project Insight is Fury's pride and joy at the beginning, and he sees absolutely no problems with it until HYDRA takes hold, even fiercely debating with Cap that he thinks Insight is a good thing with arguments that are practically identical to Pierce's later on.

This is incorrect. The entire plot gets kicked off because Fury attempts an elaborate sting to figure out who in SHIELD is manipulating the organization. He was unaware it went all the way to the top, but he was absolutely aware that there was something problematic beneath the surface with Project Insight and actively trying to stop those problems from happening.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 24th 2018 at 8:44:09 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92954: Dec 24th 2018 at 8:41:08 PM

Vaguely suspecting something's off about SHIELD after it has been corrupted to its core under his watch only decades after being the organization's Director is what I'd call "too little, too late". Fury dropped the ball.

Edited by Gaon on Dec 24th 2018 at 8:42:00 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92955: Dec 24th 2018 at 8:42:29 PM

Well Fury’s not very perceptive.

Guy’s got only one eye after all.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 24th 2018 at 8:42:56 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92956: Dec 24th 2018 at 8:43:43 PM

[up][up] Vaguely suspecting? Again, he enacted an elaborate sting to get portions of SHIELD he suspected were dirty attacked by pirates and to get access to their information so he could know exactly what's going on. Which was successful up until the point where he got nearly killed for digging too much.

Note that pretty much everyone in the MCU had, at that point, had working relationships with HYDRA members and gotten manipulated by the same. Why is Fury to blame for being lied to the same as everyone else, and not HYDRA themselves?

But even so, regardless of whether you think he could have done more, the assertion that he was blind to what's going on up until the end of the film is factually incorrect no matter what. That's literally not what happened.

My edit was ninja'd so I'll repost it:

The thing he's debating with Cap about is that operation. Widow was in on it. Cap wasn't. Cap criticizes Fury's obsession with secrets and control, leaving people out of dangerous situations that could have hurt lives, and he has a point. The big point of contention is that Fury thinks that operations like Insight could work if made to work, whereas Cap is adamant that it couldn't. That makes Fury misguided, but it doesn't make him more complicit in what's going on than he actually was, however.

That said, Fury also absolutely believes that if something like the Avengers would work even better if it can be made to work as well (it's worth noting that every step of the way that allows the Cap to have the power to do what he does in Winter Soldier in the first place were all Fury's idea), which is evident in his characterization across the entire MCU, and is why he goes along with Cap's decision to tear down SHIELD with only a token disagreement.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 24th 2018 at 9:23:14 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92957: Dec 24th 2018 at 9:19:47 PM

No really, Fury thing project insight is the next step and disreagrd Cap objection about it with a "is how reallity works right now", which it piss cap off as he reference in AOU to tony

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92958: Dec 24th 2018 at 9:38:07 PM

There's a difference between what Nick Fury says and what Nick Fury does. Remember: he lies for a living.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92959: Dec 24th 2018 at 9:38:57 PM

You're missing the forest for the trees with the assessment of Fury "knowing what was up". He knew what was up and did a commendable effort to stop it after SHIELD had been irreparably compromised for decades under his nose. Valiant and heroic effort he did, but again, a tad too late and only halfway worked with a lot of luck. Your statement as of itself already proves that in a amusing way: "it was successful, up until the point he (the director and sole leader of SHIELD) was killed".

Sure, the ones to blame for the HYDRA takeover were the actual people who sided with HYDRA, but Fury is the director of the organization. He should be held accountable for his failure to see that coming until it was practically (and literally) crashing on his both proverbial and literal windshield (and also basically gifting them their evil plan by going fully on-board with Project Insight).

I'm not saying Fury masterminded the downfall of SHIELD or that he should be shot by a firing squad for being complicit in HYDRA's rise, I'm saying it is pretty silly to say Fury ideology wasn't a problem when HYDRA spouts literally a extrapolation of said ideology. This is barely subtext (its basically shy text) I'm not even sure why we're debating this.

This is incorrect.

Perhaps there was a miscommunication here, but the scene I'm referring to is Fury and Cap standing in front of the Project Insight helicarriers discussing its effectiveness. It comes right after the scene you're mentioning about them discuss the Lemurian Star. Both scenes are connected by Fury talking to Cap in an elevator where he tells Cap about his grandfather as a way to explain how Fury's thesis about security works: mankind is a fallible race prone to self-destruction, so we'd be better to be keep our eyes open and our revolvers cocked to keep ourselves in check. He then shows him Project Insight and tells Cap how it is the best thing since sliced bread because it will help to keep mankind safe by neutralizing threats before they even happen. HYDRA's ideology is literally a extrapolation of this, down to the fact of using Project Insight for the same purpose (neutralizing threats before they happen).

Here are the three scenes in a single youtube video in case you misplaced them:

As for the evident ideological bridge between Fury's SHIELD and Pierce's HYDRA, I'm going to try going with some direct quotes to avoid confusion:

Early in, in the aforementioned scene:

Fury: My grandfather sure liked people, but he didn't trust them very much.

And then:

Fury: It's (Project Insight) gonna neutralize a lot of threats before they even happen.

Cap: I thought punishment came after the crime.

Fury: We can't afford to wait that long. (...)

Fury: SHIELD takes the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be.

Midway through the movie, Zola's Motive Rant:

Zola: HYDRA was founded on the belief humanity cannot be trusted with their own freedom.

Cut to the climax, Pierce's Motive Rant:

Fury: So, why make me head of SHIELD?

Pierce: Because you're the best. And the most ruthless person I ever met.

Fury: I did what I did to protect people.

Pierce: Our enemies are your enemies, Nick: Disorder, war. Just a matter of time before a dirty bomb goes off in Moscow or a EMP fries Chicago. (...) I can bring order to the lives of 7 billion people by sacrificing 20 million. It's the next step, Nick, if you have the courage to take it.

Both Zola, Pierce and Fury observe the same thing: Humanity is inherently self-destructive and we need to preemptively protect ourselves from our own rotten nature, compromising our morality if need be. During that Pierce conversation, Pierce outright points out Fury was allowed to be in charge of SHIELD because his ruthlesness matched HYDRA's and how his own worldview is so similar to Fury's (i.e they're also doing this "to protect people"). Fury, very noticeably, has no answer to any of the points Pierce brings up.

SHIELD's (and by extension, Nick Fury's) own ruthlesness and willingness to compromise is a prototype of HYDRA's (and subsequently, Pierce's) ideology. Fury is a heroic character, so over the course of the film he seems to realize he fucked up, but I think it's crystal clear that Nick Fury unquestionably had a parcel of blame for what is unfolding, due moral complacency (his eternal willingness to compromise) and failure to detect the HYDRA problem earlier.

I'm legitimately surprised we're arguing this, because to me, this seems like the clearest thing about the movie's Central Theme: HYDRA and SHIELD are not opposites, but one and the same.

Edited by Gaon on Dec 24th 2018 at 9:46:11 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#92960: Dec 24th 2018 at 9:41:03 PM

[up][awesome][awesome][awesome]

I co-sign this detailed analysis. That’s exactly right.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92961: Dec 24th 2018 at 9:56:01 PM

Funny thing about this, Cap reference that in AOU in the farm when taking with Tony who said he want to make the avenger useless, he rip the wood and said he hate when people prepare to war that arent there.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92962: Dec 24th 2018 at 10:19:56 PM

I'm not saying Fury masterminded the downfall of SHIELD or that he should be shot by a firing squad for being complicit in HYDRA's rise, I'm saying it is pretty silly to say Fury ideology wasn't a problem when HYDRA spouts literally a extrapolation of said ideology. This is barely subtext (its basically shy text) I'm not even sure why we're debating this.

I didn't. My point the whole time was that while the HYDRA take over was Fury's responsibility to deal with as the director, it wasn't either his fault nor the result of his own sins, and that he certainly didn't deserve to die for said imagined sins.

Perhaps there was a miscommunication here, but the scene I'm referring to is Fury and Cap standing in front of the Project Insight helicarriers discussing its effectiveness.

Then you and I are, frankly, not having the same conversation. If you initially started responding to something I wasn't even talking about in the first place, then this conversation isn't going anywhere.

And no, there isn't a miscommunication. My response of your claims being factually correct were in response to specific passages of yours that were, in fact, factually incorrect, in regards to the initial point. You made the claim that Fury was completely unaware of HYDRA's presence until the point in the movie where they revealed themselves, which was incorrect. You also made the claim that he saw no problems with Project Insight and allowed HYDRA to proceed with their plan without objection, which is 'also'' incorrect.

I quoted you earlier, if you're unaware of what - specifically - I was responding to.

You are now amending this to the claim that he's still exactly as at fault as he would've been otherwise because he allowed himself to be fooled by HYDRA for X amount of years, which is fine - if arguable - but that doesn't retroactively make your initial attempts to exaggerate Fury's fault correct.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 24th 2018 at 10:26:15 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#92963: Dec 24th 2018 at 10:25:49 PM

It's worth noting that HYDRA themselves saw Fury as an obstacle. It's why they tried to kill him in the first place — he was starting to catch on to them. Pierce only tries to convince Fury they are Not So Different after he realizes Fury survived.

Edited by M84 on Dec 25th 2018 at 2:26:49 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92964: Dec 24th 2018 at 10:31:42 PM

I mean, putting Fury at fault for HYDRA's actions because he was unable to see that they existed for decades is incredibly problematic, because it literally throws everyone who was in position of government power in the past decades who isn't Captain America (since he missed all those years as a popsicle) under a bus for the sake of saying Fury's the problem. Hence my pointing out how many of the heroes had engagement with HYDRA in some form or another.

There's, to note, a marked difference between fault and responsibility. HYDRA is absolutely Fury's responsibility for the reasons Gaon stated. Their existence is in no way his fault for those reasons, however, especially when he did eventually cotton onto their scheme and do his damnedest to stop it.

And as I hinted at before, when noting that Fury's take on what's right has been more complex in the bulk of the MCU, trying to boil down Fury's characterization by only taking a single scene as the bulk of it, disregarding everything else he does or says even in the same movie, is always going to be inaccurate. It's pigeonholing the character to an extreme degree.

He was all for Project Insight. He was also rather easy to convince to throw it away, once it turned out to be a tool for HYDRA. At the same time, he's been very clear before and after that he sees relying on Captain America and people like him as superior to weaponization (he outright says so in Avengers, and evidently dedicates his life to supporting the Avengers afterwards), but doesn't feel he can at the time - Cap, then, makes him feel he can, and thus Fury leave's SHIELD behind. None of these things cancel each other out. Fury's an interesting example of a character who is both an idealist and a "realist," and can have both exaggerated depending on the needs of the story.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 24th 2018 at 10:35:45 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92965: Dec 24th 2018 at 10:48:35 PM

My point the whole time was that while the HYDRA take over was Fury's responsibility to deal with as the director, it wasn't either his fault nor the result of his own sins, and that he certainly didn't deserve to die for said imagined sins.

I never, at any point, said he deserved to die. I said he was at fault, because of moral complacency and yes, his own sins. You're trying to exonerate the character for something the movie clearly condemns, and I don't know why.

Then you and I are, frankly, not having the same conversation.

I think this is actually correct. You misread my original post, disregarded my attempts at trying to help you understand what I meant, and proceeded to accuse me of intellectual dishonesty. We're swimming in opposite directions and it's becoming self-evident you are not really willing to take anything I say in good faith.

Because:

You made the claim that Fury was completely unaware of HYDRA's presence until the point in the movie where they revealed themselves, which was incorrect.

I did not make this claim at any point and if you go back to read my original post, you'll see that I did not. My claim was always that Fury's sin was his decades of inaction. I did not spell this out in my original post but tried to explain this in subsequent posts.

You also made the claim that he saw no problems with Project Insight and allowed HYDRA to proceed with their plan without objection, which is 'also'' incorrect.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Nick Fury's plan was Project Insight, and he had no problems with it until HYDRA hijacked said Project Insight.

You are now amending this to the claim that he's still exactly as at fault as he would've been otherwise because he allowed himself to be fooled by HYDRA for X amount of years, which is fine - if arguable - but that doesn't retroactively make your initial attempts to exaggerate Fury's fault correct.

My argument at first and my argument now is the exact same. If you are unwilling to accept that fact, I advise you drop it because this has ceased to be an actual debate the moment you stopped giving me any sort of benefit of the doubt.

Edited by Gaon on Dec 24th 2018 at 10:49:40 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#92966: Dec 24th 2018 at 10:49:25 PM

It's especially weird blaming Fury for HYDRA's infiltration of SHIELD considering the infiltration likely happened before Fury was even born (how old is he anyway?).

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92967: Dec 24th 2018 at 10:58:05 PM

I never, at any point, said he deserved to die.

I never said you did. My original post was a response to someone else, remember? I just never changed my position the entire time, since I assumed that since you jumped into the conversation you were aware of what was being talked about.

[up][up]

Again, I literally quoted you. You can make arguments in response to my response to your statements, but you can't claim you didn't say them.

This?

The fact Project Insight is Fury's pride and joy at the beginning, and he sees absolutely no problems with it until HYDRA takes hold

Is wrong. Factually, this is not actually what happens in the movie. Period.

And again, it seems at this point that the only reason you think it's not is because you're only paying attention a single scene in the film and ignoring everything that surrounds it.

Framing me as unreasonable because I actually saw the movie and knew that from paying attention is a poor strategy at best. I didn't make up the fact that Fury did, in fact, have problems with the project. Nor did I make up the fact that Fury took steps against HYDRA in regards to those problems - the fact that they failed doesn't mean they didn't happen. And as I said before, your claim that it doesn't matter because Fury was still fooled for X amount you years is problematic at best.

I'm game to make a debate/conversation about those, sure. But if your response at this stage is instead to frame me as picking a fight, then fine. If you don't want a debate to be had about this, then end the conversation.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 24th 2018 at 11:04:28 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92968: Dec 24th 2018 at 11:04:09 PM

You may have literally quoted me all you want, that does not make your claims any more factual.

Is wrong. Factually, this is not actually what happens in the movie. Period.

How isn't that what happens in the movie? Fury has no problem with Project Insight until HYDRA takes over. It's literally what's contained in the scene I linked beforehand. He passionately debates Project Insight with Cap, arguing for its positives. Can you explain me where I'm wrong here?

I'm just going to ignore your claims of ad hominen, because it is downright absurd for you to accuse me of such when you were the one who tried to claim me as intellectually dishonest first, particularly after sentences like this:

Framing me as unreasonable because I actually saw the movie and knew that from paying attention is a poor strategy at best.

Edited by Gaon on Dec 24th 2018 at 11:06:09 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92969: Dec 24th 2018 at 11:07:35 PM

It's been pointed out to you that the entire beginning of the movie (which is his attempt to root out his suspicious and reservations about the project), Fury's actions and decisions later in the movie (in which he ultimately agrees with Cap, albeit with some argument, that SHIELD should go), and his general philosophy throughout the entire MCU (in which he explicitly prides people like Cap over weaponization) show that there's more to his characterization than that very specific, single scene has made you believe.

It's also been pointing out to you that looking at one specific scene and cherry picking it to claim it's everything there is to know about a character who says and does quite a bit in their multi-movie tenure is always going to be problematic.

You're trying to oversimplify a character who is simply more complex than you want to think. Hence your lack of accuracy.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 24th 2018 at 11:11:04 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92970: Dec 24th 2018 at 11:12:14 PM

I'm somewhat fascinated by the claim I'm trying to oversimplify the character. I'm trying to point out the nuance of the character, in that despite being a legitimately heroic character, Winter Soldier (undeniably, in my eyes) frames his ideology as problematic and shows that even the mighty Nick Fury can (and has made) some big mistakes over his life, among them his questionable handling of the HYDRA crisis.

From my end, you're the one who seems to be disregarding the central theme of Winter Soldier to reduce Fury to a simple Reasonable Authority Figure. My argument this whole time was that Winter Soldier propped up nuances to Fury by showing his moral complexity.

(which is his attempt to root out his suspicious and reservations about the project)

This is where you're tripping up. Fury has no reservations about Project Insight in the first act, he has reservations about his enemies possibly using it.

I am also going to point out that, if you're trying to make this more civil, you are failing. Every post contains some sort of jab at my intellectual capacity or some accusation (like "cherry picking").

Edited by Gaon on Dec 24th 2018 at 11:15:19 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#92971: Dec 24th 2018 at 11:16:42 PM

Pre-HYDRA reveal, Fury may have been trying to examine issues with Project Insight, but that doesn't mean his stance on the project and its ideology was therefore reasonable. Had he found Zola's algorithm, he probably would've ordered it deleted, then resumed moving forward the Helicarriers again to monitor the planet clear of any "bad data". His stance on policing all humans pre-crime wouldn't have changed.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 24th 2018 at 11:17:14 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92972: Dec 24th 2018 at 11:17:01 PM

[up] We're all in agreement about that, but whether Fury had to learn the hard way to have reservations against the project and whether he's at fault for HYDRA's use of it and concurrent takeover are two different things.

Fury has no reservations about Project Insight in the first act, he has reservations about his enemies possibly using it.

To be specific, he smells something fishy about the project and how it's progressing, and enacts a covert operation against his own people to root out what those fishy aspects might be. He's defends the idea of the project, but has also noted that he doesn't put all his eggs in baskets like that on other occasions.

He is not aware that he has enemies in SHIELD until after this investigation is done.

From my end, you're the one who seems to be disregarding the central theme of Winter Soldier to reduce Fury to a simple Reasonable Authority Figure. My argument this whole time was that Winter Soldier propped up nuances to Fury by showing his moral complexity.

In my defense, I don't recall you ever actually saying any of that, and if you did it got buried under everything else you've said instead. I've responding to you as if you were trying to exaggerate Fury's fault because your primary focus has been in iterating how you feel Fury, in your words, "fucked up."

If that's been what you meant to say the whole time, then I agree.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 24th 2018 at 11:26:04 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92973: Dec 24th 2018 at 11:50:40 PM

What gaon and other said is Fury sins and flaws stern that he is moving forward and forward to a sort of authoritarins and used of force to destroy is enemies, is conversation with cap show it: when Cap try to object on moral grounds he just said is a new step and that Shield move "with the real world" which is why he took so long to see the problem of HYDRA because the organization is using a logical extreme version of is own thinking, exactly because of Pierce who become a Hydra member by twisted admiration of Fury "Hard men do Hard choices".

I mean is not coincidence the Shield base of operation is crush by the very helicarrier of porject insight, it really said a lot.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92974: Dec 25th 2018 at 12:40:51 AM

The point here is that exactly because of this final confrontation between Fury and Pierce it is necessary that Fury survives. If Fury had died, he would have been a martyr to the cause. By having the confrontation the movie can show that Fury by dabbling in the grey area too much unwittingly crossed a line and started to help Hydra while trying to fight it. You wouldn't have the message there if you kill Fury off earlier.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#92975: Dec 25th 2018 at 1:15:49 AM

EDIT

Edited by comicwriter on Dec 25th 2018 at 1:22:26 AM


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