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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92676: Dec 18th 2018 at 6:34:16 AM

@wisewillow Yes, but the quality of the third act overall isn't really important for the question of Black Panther deserves an academy award for special effects or not. It could be the worst movie out there, if the special effects looked great, it would deserve the award (just like Suicide Squad got it for make up of all things). And it could be the equal to the Godfather, it still wouldn't deserve the award if the special effects are the one weakness of the movie. Or someone else did it better.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92677: Dec 18th 2018 at 6:36:15 AM

Nothing ever deserves to have all the awards.

If you do your just gonna make people pissed off.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#92679: Dec 18th 2018 at 6:38:18 AM

Return of the King is probably the closest any one film will ever come to getting all the awards. And let’s be honest, the awards were really more for the entire trilogy- Fellowship is a better film than Rot K.

[up] Oh god Titanic. Ughhhhhh.

Edited by wisewillow on Dec 18th 2018 at 9:38:44 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92680: Dec 18th 2018 at 6:38:52 AM

Gasp! How dare you! Return of the King is a masterpiece!

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#92681: Dec 18th 2018 at 6:41:22 AM

The pacing is a tad iffy (5 endings!), the CGI is overused compared to Fot R and TT, and it’s not as tightly edited as Fellowship tongue And I love Rot K, but come on.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92682: Dec 18th 2018 at 6:48:16 AM

I'm not saying Black Panther deserves all the awards, just that it at least deserves a nomination on best movie, it simply had too much impact not to.

I also think it deserves one for costume design, because the whole of Wakanda is just *Italian Chef Kiss*, magnifique!

And while I won't say Fellowship is a batter movie than Ro TK, I will it is the better adaptation, 'cause they cut off Tom Bombadil and I will never not celebrate that fact.

And no talking shit about Titanic in a thread I'm part of, the ending gets me every damn time.

This is, of course, a joke, you can talk shit about whichever movie you want, but do so under the warning that I'll be judging you from behind my computer screen all the while.

Edited by HailMuffins on Dec 18th 2018 at 11:51:59 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92683: Dec 18th 2018 at 6:53:09 AM

Isn't Schindler's list still the movie which holds the record of getting most awards?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92684: Dec 18th 2018 at 7:20:32 AM

See, here's why BP deserves the awards over IW for me: character growth. T'Challa is a person who grows and changes over the course of his journey. He starts out like, "I'm the new King, time to Wakanda like Wakandans do," and then through the experiences he has in the story, he's like, "Is the way Wakandans Wakanda actually the wrong way to Wakanda?"

Everyone in Infinity War is a static character. IW is a 2.5 hour series of Let's You and Him Fight. It is gorgeously rendered, but it's basically a series of fight scenes broken up by brief moments of levity where Absolute, Unyielding Characters talk about their Absolute, Unyielding Ideals before launching into the next fight.

For all the talk of Thanos being the real protagonist of the film, he's no exception. He starts out ready to sacrifice anything and do whatever it takes to achieve his ideal of balance, and he concludes the film in the same position. His sacrifice of Gamora is not a moment of growth or development, but a reaffirmation of what we already knew about him: he will stop at nothing.

The closest things we get to character growth are Doctor Strange sacrificing the Time Gem to save Stark's life despite saying he would do nothing of the sort before and Groot putting down the video games for a sec. But the first one is undermined by the strong implication that he's just playing the long game and being manipulative, while the latter has zero build-up and kinda comes out of nowhere.

Infinity War is the single most well-designed Beat-em-up Flash Video ever made, throwing a lot of popular characters at the screen and letting them cut loose in massive CGI effectsplosions. But Black Panther, like, actually has a plot, compelling themes, interesting political analysis, and character development and stuff. So it wins.

EDIT: Also, as an aside, "Is isolationism really such a good idea?" is a more interesting and complicated theme than "Genocide: should we commit it?"

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 18th 2018 at 8:25:23 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92685: Dec 18th 2018 at 7:34:28 AM

Not special effects though. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92686: Dec 18th 2018 at 7:43:43 AM

Well, this is my main problem with Black Panther...because while "is isolationism really a good idea" is a good question to ask, Black Panther's answer - No - isn't really that convincing. In a way, Wakanda is every isolationist wet dream - rich, advanced, peaceful - and you could argue that it would have stayed that way if they had succeeded in keeping out those foreigners

It would have been better if they had shown that the country is suffering some drawbacks from isolationism.

And again, none of this has anything to do with the question if Black Panther deserves specifically the special effects award.

Edited by Swanpride on Dec 18th 2018 at 7:44:35 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92687: Dec 18th 2018 at 7:47:20 AM

It should be noted that in the comics Wakanda is under constant civil war & infighting & the Wakandan's themselves are xenophobic as all hell which makes dealing with them a bit of a nightmare.

Infighting between the tribes could have been a good flaw.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 18th 2018 at 7:48:28 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#92688: Dec 18th 2018 at 7:54:28 AM

I wanna add that the previous four MCU movies have not only held up wonderfully but have all gotten better and better over time and subsequent viewings. Infinity War...well, it's not a bad movie, far from it and it was absolutely a phenomenal theater experience, but looking at it critically, it's got more holes and blemishes, less substance, lower lows, and a fairly overrated villain. I'll stick with Vulture and Killmonger, thanks.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#92689: Dec 18th 2018 at 7:56:33 AM

It’s “with great power comes great responsibility”, applied to nations as well as heroes.

If Spider-Man wanted to, he could totally dismiss Uncle Ben’s death as just an unfortunate coincidence and keep on enjoying his powers. Superman doesn’t have to save anybody. Batman and Tony Stark could sit on their piles of money. Wonder Woman could stay in paradise. And Wakanda could keep telling the rest of the world to buzz off.

What makes them heroes is that they choose to lend a hand anyway.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92690: Dec 18th 2018 at 7:57:49 AM

Seems a little reductive of the term Character Development to call Thanos embracing the self-imposed burden of his quest "not Character Development". The term doesn't just apply to characters changing their inner nature, characters accepting it also fits squarely into the description. You have Thanos who starts the movie as wanting to balance (his own demented version of) his love for his daughter with his burden to save the universe and having to eventually pick one, which he does. That's Character Growth. Thanos even highlights it during the scene in Vormir when he observes "I ignored my destiny once. I cannot do it again, not even for you.". It's a more greek theatre-esque form of character growth where it is Thanos surrendering himself to the larger forces of destiny he thinks are at play.

There are other characters with arcs, as well. Strange spends most of the movie as a cold-hearted chessmaster willing to sacrifice anyone to save the universe before seemingly realizing the futility of his quest and doing a 180, giving Thanos the Soul Stone to save Stark, either because he realized his chessmastery would get him nowhere or because he realized he cannot sacrifice Stark so coldly (we'll only find out next movie), either way there was a movement there. Wanda is naturally very attached to Vision and her character arc is letting go of that attachment for the greater good (not that it helps her).

It's just the character arcs get truncated by virtue of having a cast big enough to crew a warship.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92691: Dec 18th 2018 at 8:05:08 AM

[up][up][up] Honestly I wouldn't rate Homecoming that high.

Vulture's a great guy don't get me wrong but I don't know it just feels flabby.

Plus I can't let go that Iron Man encroaches too much upon Spider-Man. He's less of his own man as a result.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 18th 2018 at 8:09:16 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92692: Dec 18th 2018 at 8:21:54 AM

Well, this is my main problem with Black Panther...because while "is isolationism really a good idea" is a good question to ask, Black Panther's answer - No - isn't really that convincing. In a way, Wakanda is every isolationist wet dream - rich, advanced, peaceful - and you could argue that it would have stayed that way if they had succeeded in keeping out those foreigners

It would have been better if they had shown that the country is suffering some drawbacks from isolationism.

They by and large did succeed in keeping out those foreigners, though. Killmonger is Wakandan by blood. The only foreigner that breached their borders was Klaue

The problem with Wakanda is that even though they withdrew from the world and declared "not our problem", it was only a matter of time before the rest of the world became their problem anyway. No nation exists in a vacuum, no matter how much its people may wish to. You can shut your eyes and close your ears and pretend no one else exists, but that only leaves you unprepared for when they make their existence known.

Strange spends most of the movie as a cold-hearted chessmaster willing to sacrifice anyone to save the universe before seemingly realizing the futility of his quest and doing a 180, giving Thanos the Soul Stone to save Stark, either because he realized his chessmastery would get him nowhere or because he realized he cannot sacrifice Stark so coldly (we'll only find out next movie), either way there was a movement there.

"Strange begins the film being a cold-hearted chessmaster willing to do anything to win the day. Ends the film making a cold-hearted chessmaster move that he knows will win the day."

I don't see any development there. Strange's "endgame" is a clever moment, but it strips any actual change or growth his character might have underwent by making clear that this was just the same kind of cruel-arithmetic Chessmaster play he'd already advertised himself as being willing to make.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 18th 2018 at 9:23:58 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92693: Dec 18th 2018 at 8:25:33 AM

I can only speak for myself, but I thought that Infinity War might not hold up that well for multipel viewings, but it totally does. Maybe because I notice another detail or reference each time. And the more emotional scenes are genuinely moving. Though naturally the scene between Thor and Rocket hurts even more when you know how it ends.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92694: Dec 18th 2018 at 8:38:00 AM

" No nation exists in a vacuum, no matter how much its people may wish to. You can shut your eyes and close your ears and pretend no one else exists, but that only leaves you unprepared for when they make their existence known."

Thing is, Wakanda HAVE done so every well, more than any nation and have suffer not consequence for that like China or Jappon who pay dearly for their insolation and their answer to that was pretty much be Killmonger.

Also I would said Killmonger is something of Tchalla dark side, remenber what T Challa did when his father die? he decide to use the suit, going on a man hunt of is own, IN another country, getting into fight with another superhero, ignoring the sokovia accords, get into a fight he dosent need it and was played by Zemo, hell is action could got Wakanda discover with is reckless.....

And Eric father die, by Tchalla Father no less and was let to rot......

Is not hard to see Tchalla could have being like Eric.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#92695: Dec 18th 2018 at 9:21:42 AM

@Tobias A character starting a movie with one set of beliefs, encountering challenges that makes them question their beliefs, and coming out having reaffirmed those beliefs is still a valid and fully-realized type of character arc, and plenty of movies have it.

Yeah, I don't think Black Panther should win an award for special effects. Costuming? Sure, but not special effects. Those rhinos alone disqualify it, especially compared to Ant-Man "you will believe in giant people" and The Wasp and Avengers "the 9 foot tall purple man is totally real, right?" Infinity War.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92696: Dec 18th 2018 at 9:27:01 AM

Thus said, I will be VERY upset if Black Panther doesn't get the award for Costumes. They are gorgeous!

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#92697: Dec 18th 2018 at 9:29:44 AM

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see Josh Brolin get a nomination for Thanos for Best Actor. Maybe not win, but I think that performance was definitely nomination-worthy.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92698: Dec 18th 2018 at 9:31:24 AM

[up][up] Definitely for set-design if there is one.

Really nailed the future-Africa look.

[up] And to think the most human of all was a nonhuman. tongue

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 18th 2018 at 9:31:59 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92699: Dec 18th 2018 at 9:39:41 AM

Also Thannos...killgrave....Purple people are surely the worst isnt?. none of them are good.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#92700: Dec 18th 2018 at 9:43:36 AM

I'm pretty sure Brolin won't be nominated for any acting awards for playing Thanos. The Academy doesn't seem to recognize mo-cap performances as actual performances. If Andy Serkis hasn't gotten an Oscar yet, there's no hope for Brolin.

However, I do see the possibility that Michael B. Jordan might be nominated for Best Supporting Actor in Black Panther (2018). It's not highly likely, but it's something I can see happening.


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