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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#92601: Dec 17th 2018 at 5:58:44 PM

Long story short, I remain in the BP > IW club. I may go as far as to say IW is kinda, sorta, just a little bit overrated.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92602: Dec 17th 2018 at 6:08:25 PM

Thanos doesn't fit the Hero's Journey but there are shades of it here and there in his plotline. More accurately, he has one third of the Hero's Journey: He has no Call to Adventure or Mentor (so he sidesteps effectively the entire first third of the Hero's Journey), but one could reasonably construct the sequence in Vormir as being a abridged take on the second third of the Hero's Journey as defined by Campbell: Belly of the Whale (Thanos going to the isolated world of Vormir), The Road of Trials (him having to contend with the test presented by Vormir), The Meeting with the Goddess (here being Red Skull as a herald of the gods), The Final Temptation (his unwillingness to sacrifice Gamora), The Abyss and The Apotheosis (Thanos sacrificing her and coming to terms with the burden of his self-imposed mission to save the universe) and the Ultimate Boon (him finally getting the Soul Stone).

The first third and the final third of the journey aren't really present, but the second is there in Broad Strokes, which is probably where people get the idea Thanos undergoes a polarity-reversed Hero's Journey.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#92603: Dec 17th 2018 at 6:33:31 PM

I think people are stretching the definition if for no other reason than that we so rarely see the villain going through any kind of character arc in superhero films.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#92604: Dec 17th 2018 at 6:34:28 PM

I'm not great at ranking movies in general, and I enjoyed Black Panther, Infinity War, and Ant-Man and the Wasp for different reasons, but I think Black Panther might be my favourite. I think it was the most consistent thematically, without being as heavy-handed as Infinity War got.

That being said, I saw Into the Spiderverse Friday, and I just want to say that it is a Perfect Movie.

Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#92605: Dec 17th 2018 at 6:42:22 PM

Firstly, I'll say that I like BP a whole, whole lot. I love the characters and Wakanda is extremely cool. However, I'd say it has a lot of issues. Pacing issues, a pretty standard story hero-wise, and a great villain that's criminally underused and killed off in standard Marvel fashion. It also suffers some pretty bad special effects fails in its final act, which is extremely frustrating because of how important that Erik/T'Challa fight is supposed to be.

Personally I love Infinity War for it's sheer spectacle and bazaar comic book plot and the fact that it's one of its kind. It's literally never been done before. There is no other movie that serves as part of a grand finale to 20+ films that all have their own little worlds and logic, that combine into grand team ups. It's just a marvel (pun intended) to watch, and as a huge comic book fan...Just wow.

Edited by Zanthype on Dec 17th 2018 at 6:42:59 AM

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#92606: Dec 17th 2018 at 6:50:05 PM

Black Panther is important for several reasons, and it delivers on those reasons fantastically, but it's also a fairly standard MCU film, as far as plot and story structure go. It has a few twists and turns on the formula, but not especially more so than other MCU films.

Infinity War is experimental and unique, in terms of story structure, pacing, narrative, and what it means, it is wholly unique, special, and one-of-a-kind. There is no other movie in existence that even tries the things Infinity War does, and Infinity War succeeds at the risks it takes with style and confidence.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#92607: Dec 17th 2018 at 6:50:54 PM

I wouldn't say Killmonger is underused. Unlike a lot of Marvel villains he actually is reasonably fleshed out and has a compelling backstory and thematic/narrative weight as an antagonist.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92608: Dec 17th 2018 at 6:52:19 PM

[up]On the other hand it have all the issue with that: Cap part of the movie is borderline pointless, it render Civil war almost irrelevant to Thanos and most of the weight is center in Titan leaving much of the movie running.

I will said Black panther take is concept seriously which as starting movie* is pretty damn bold but it have some moments like hong kong which add a lot of nothing to the movie.

Funny thing is when it come to tightness, ant and waps is better but is a heist movie, that is usually their fort point.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92609: Dec 17th 2018 at 6:57:49 PM

I'm legitimately about fifty / fifty on whether Infinity War should beat out better movies simply by way of being more ambitious. On the one hand, it's sheer scope definitely something that deserves praise, being so ambitious and making success out of it. On the other hand, it's still not a better movie than its contemporaries, who deserve recognition for their success too.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92610: Dec 17th 2018 at 7:04:17 PM

[up]Well, one can said Black panther is more ambitious in is production by filim almost all in africa, using enterely black cast and the TONS of reserch and symbolism use in Wakanda, I would love to see it again in a sequel.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92611: Dec 17th 2018 at 7:05:51 PM

hadWell, like I said before, premise wise and socially Black Panther is extremely ambitious. Story structure wise it focuses on being solid rather than being experimental, likely because of that. It had more to prove through being a good movie than it did through being an experiment one.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#92612: Dec 17th 2018 at 7:15:44 PM

@Zanthype: Just so we're all clear here, are you referring to Klaue when you were talking about a "criminally underused villain"? Because, if you're referring to Erik, I'm curious why you felt he was underutilized.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#92613: Dec 17th 2018 at 7:37:05 PM

I don't really see IW as all that "experimental" in it's story or structure either TBH. At it's core it's essentially "hero's try and stop bad guy from getting McGuffin thing(s) to do bad thing." And even the juggling a big cast and "hero's lose in the end cliffhanger" has been done before, the former even done in other MCU films.

However, that isn't really a bad thing imo because IW succeeds for the most part, with some quibbles on my part, at what it's trying to do anyway.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#92614: Dec 17th 2018 at 7:37:55 PM

I like all three movies but I think AM&TW is actually my favorite of the three. It's just so... fun.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#92615: Dec 17th 2018 at 7:39:15 PM

[up][up][up]As far as actual screen time goes, he's not actually in the movie that much until the later half, and it feels like it takes forever for him to get to Wakanda. I would've liked to see him and T'challa interact a lot more. And honestly he's just such a good character I hate that he was killed off after one movie. I think if he lived he could've become an anti-hero that remains a player in the MCU, kind of Like what they did with Loki.

Edited by Zanthype on Dec 17th 2018 at 7:39:48 AM

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#92616: Dec 17th 2018 at 7:43:08 PM

I like both Black Panther and Infinity War, and anyone who tries to make me choose between them will suffer my wrath.

So says Rob.

Ant Man and the Wasp is cool as well.

One Strip! One Strip!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92617: Dec 17th 2018 at 7:48:30 PM

Yeah I fill that if MCU is so bend in forgiving Loki even after all the shit he did(after all he die trying to protect Thor) or the shit it did with Odin by giving a nice and clean death to a warmonger I will said Eric deserve better.

"It had more to prove through being a good movie than it did through being an experiment one."

I disagre, Panther need to put more on explaing Wakanda which is to T´Challa the same as the suit to Tony, this is really dificult since Waknda as fiction nation need more work to do.

IW on the other hand already have much of the work laid ground and tons of hype for other movie move around.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92618: Dec 17th 2018 at 8:00:51 PM

I think you guys all have to remember that the "Hero's Journey" is just a name that Joseph Campbell made up when he noticed a recurring number of motifs in myths and legends. He didn't "invent" the Hero's Journey, nor is the Hero's Journey something where anyone can just slot things in and it will fit. The Hero's Journey is actually pretty specific:

A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.

Infinity War is experimental and unique
I would call Infinity War unique, but not "experimental." There is nothing in it that hasn't been done before.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 17th 2018 at 8:02:09 AM

KusaMigeru Interesting Person #928 from Kanda Island Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Interesting Person #928
#92619: Dec 17th 2018 at 8:04:08 PM

Infinity War was great, had a lot of spectacle and yes, tried to make Thanos a bit more grayish in motivations. The problem is: his motivations also happen to be the same BS repeated over the centuries by some high-profile biologists and economists who don't seem to get certain institutional, social and economic nuances and keep being rightfully rebutted.

Now, while Black Panther did use a pretty basic formula, it also used it as a vessel to include real-life issues (social and cultural), mainly by using Erik as a foil for T'Challa: reaffirmation of local cultural identity vs. pan-africanism, post-colonialist issues (e.g.: whether post-colonized tend to define themselves by having the colonizer as a basis, even if just to be an antithesis), isolationism against globalism (if you will), etc.

I really liked IW, but BP was the first Marvel Studios movie that made me ponder a bit more about it. So yeah.

... And that's called jazz!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92620: Dec 17th 2018 at 8:11:22 PM

[up]It dosent help that as sci fi chararter, Thannos motivation really come as even more damn silly, thannos is a good proof that presentation can outshine logic.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#92621: Dec 17th 2018 at 8:15:44 PM

The best thing about Thanos is Josh Brolin's performance. The effects and voice work are so damn good that Brolin is really able to shine through and totally sell the madness and the tragic elements of the character.

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92622: Dec 17th 2018 at 8:18:59 PM

[up]It help the movie treat is madness as "resonable" or not overly villanoius so it sell the chararter better.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#92623: Dec 17th 2018 at 8:21:17 PM

I think the movie made it pretty clear that Thanos is wrong. His plan is never meant to be taken as a good idea. That's why everyone is trying to stop him.

To paraphrase the Russo's: Thanos might seem like a reasonable person and he certainly tries to present himself that way to the other characters, but he's ultimately a mad narcissist that had his plan for saving Titan rebuked, and is now obsessed with carrying it out on a grand scale because he's egotistical.

Edited by Zanthype on Dec 17th 2018 at 8:24:55 AM

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92624: Dec 17th 2018 at 8:26:53 PM

I think the movie made it pretty clear that Thanos is wrong.
When?

Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#92625: Dec 17th 2018 at 8:30:46 PM

I have to ask, are you insinuating that the movie tries to present this as the right thing to do, and anything but horrible? The end of the movie is horrific shots of beloved characters falling to pieces and the ones left reacting in terror and grief. I'm not sure how that could be any more "this is bad."

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."

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